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Post by barry on Jan 23, 2006 17:44:58 GMT -5
Bryan I have had to bury 1 of my own kids and 1 we wanted to adopt. (I have one of the Kids name tattooed on my arm so I see it everytime I bench, I would love for you to tell me to my face how thats wrong.) I lost everyting I owned 4 years ago. Never once did I blame God for any of this. So to say that some CCM caused you to backslide, To quote someone else on here "Please". You constantly try to drive YOUR view on here. People have tried to get you to shut up in more than one way. I don't question your love for God in the least. Just because you think one way and others don't DOES NOT make them wrong. You have never let anyone have the last word, which leads me to think your way to proud or maybe just vain. I have said it before and feel the same now; if you spent half the time you spend on here defending yourself and telling everybody how THEY misunderstand things because they don't agree with you, you could have built a new home. How much time and energy do you expend just to find scripture to defend yourself. Come to think of it, your about the only one on here that does have to defend themselves. Not everyone comes on here to listen to your infinite wisdom. I just enjoy reading things and opinions from Christian People. I love how Mike took an idea and ran with it. Maybe you have some private personal issuses YOU need to deal with in your own life before you offer so much advice to others. Before you spend a couple of hours telling me how I'm wrong and heres why, save it. I don't care for you opinion or your thoughts on me. You have never walked in my shoes and if a little music causes you problems, you need not try. God gives ME strength in my lifting and in my life enough to cope with things. When I can't I ask for a little help. This started out as a forum for Christian Powerlifters, you in turn have tried to turn it into the "Bryan Kimble Show". Personally I don't like the way you use Shane and Mikes idea to promote yourself. The fact that nobody on here wants to cause hard feelings or be mean on a Christian forum is thier buisness. Wether I agree with Thane, Shane Gaydon, Stevefredine, Doug, or anyone on here or not, I respect thier belief in God enough not to tell them thier view is wrong. They are here for a common love of the Lord, that is good enough for me. Try spending some quality time with your family instead of argueing with grown men that don't want to argue. HOW DO YOU NOT GET THE PICTURE? Everybody has tried to tell you in thier own polite way.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 25, 2006 9:15:47 GMT -5
Barry, Though I personally do not know what you are feeling with the deaths that you mentioned, I can relate with the multiple deaths in my family [including my parents] over the past few years. I am also glad to hear that you didn’t blame God for what has happened in your life. I don’t see what this has to do with the discussion, but I will leave it at that.
So to say that some CCM caused you to backslide, To quote someone else on here "Please". It was one of the catalysts as I violated Romans 12:2 in my life. That is all that I have stated. Take it or leave it.
“You constantly try to drive YOUR view on here.” If I was to express MY view on here, it would be that I personally enjoy CCM. But you will not get my personal view. I have surrendered and submitted myself to the Lord, including my personal view.
“People have tried to get you to shut up in more than one way.” And others have asked questions to get me to open up. During the month that I wasn’t on this forum, I received emails from about a dozen asking me to come back.
“Just because you think one way and others don't DOES NOT make them wrong.” Never said it did. That is an attitude that has been assigned by others, such as yourself. I have not said that, implied that, or even thought that. All I have done is present the facts, such as from the Bible, and let people come to their own conclusion.
“You have never let anyone have the last word, which leads me to think your way to proud or maybe just vain.” Now, I know you haven’t read my posts. If you think I am proud or vain, why do I constantly insult or put myself down?
“I have said it before and feel the same now; if you spent half the time you spend on here defending yourself and telling everybody how THEY misunderstand things because they don't agree with you, you could have built a new home.” Actually, most of the time I spend on here is trying to stop people from putting words in my mouth like you are doing here. You are assuming one thing when I said another.
“How much time and energy do you expend just to find scripture to defend yourself?” Very little. I may spend about 45-60 minutes per week on this forum. Not much at all.
“Come to think of it, you are about the only one on here that does have to defend themselves.” Ask yourself why. Why do people want to assume I am saying something different than what I am saying? Why do people assume that it is my personal opinion when I quote the Bible?
“Not everyone comes on here to listen to your infinite wisdom.” PRAISE GOD FOR THAT!! If you were to depend upon my wisdom, you would have a very long walk off a short pier! LOL!! That is why I have NEVER put my own personal opinions or views on this forum.
“I just enjoy reading things and opinions from Christian People.” I enjoy reading also what others have learned from the Holy Spirit and the Bible. I don’t enjoy reading the postings of people’s personal opinions, views, or feelings. Let’s try to stay objective here and crucify self/pride/ego.
“Maybe you have some private personal issues YOU need to deal with in your own life before you offer so much advice to others.” Like what? I try to make sure I am prayed up and in the Word before I come here on a daily basis. As a preacher, I am COMMANDED to speak out and to “earnestly contend for the faith”. In fact, so are you by the Word of God.
“Before you spend a couple of hours telling me how I'm wrong and heres why, save it. I don't care for you opinion or your thoughts on me.” It will take about 5 minutes to reply to this. Also, I have never offered my opinions or thought about you on this forum. And I have no plans to do so.
“This started out as a forum for Christian Powerlifters, you in turn have tried to turn it into the "Bryan Kimble Show". Personally I don't like the way you use Shane and Mikes idea to promote yourself.” Never done that – but I guess you will take the attitude of “don’t confuse me with the facts since my mind is already made up”. That is the impress you are giving and no matter what evidence I present, you will outright reject it. In fact, I will put out a poll to see if people want me to leave this forum or not.
“The fact that nobody on here wants to cause hard feelings or be mean on a Christian forum is their business.” AMEN! I have no plans to start causing hard feelings with others or to be mean to anyone.
“Wether I agree with Thane, Shane Gaydon, Stevefredine, Doug, or anyone on here or not, I respect thier belief in God enough not to tell them thier view is wrong.” Same here. You have yet to point out one time that I have said ANYWHERE on this forum that another person was wrong. Why? Because I have never done it. You assume that I have – that is all.
“Try spending some quality time with your family instead of argueing with grown men that don't want to argue.” Maybe you forget that I have been trying to get others to quit arguing? Maybe again I think you have not been reading my posts for what I actually stated and just assuming. Just an FYI, I spend about an hour per week on this forum and about 72 hours per week with my family. If you wish to continue to insult me, at least have your facts right.
“HOW DO YOU NOT GET THE PICTURE? Everybody has tried to tell you in thier own polite way.” If everyone is trying to say that, then why did they invite me to this forum and then ask me back after I left?
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Post by pitbull on Jan 25, 2006 9:35:52 GMT -5
Stump, “Primarily an argument is not emotional or irrational. They can digress to that but initially they are defined as above.” I stand corrected. From personal experience I see a distinction between an objective debate and an emotional argument. I prefer to discuss things with brothers than reducing it to a “shouting match”, as some have attempted to do.
"You are presenting a point and have supplied your support. Paul did this in his writings a lot. You are arguing a point in print." Yes, I do present a point and give the evidence to support it and then answer any objections and questions, but I refuse to get involved in an argument. Those are pointless."
“Response: Per the definition above, you are in an argument, debate.” Again, it is a matter of splitting hairs and dealing with how each of us look at the difference between a discussion, a debate, and an argument. I would hope that you can at least say that I have tried to stay objective and not post personal opinions.
“None of these passages is an instruction re the MUST aspect of the components of music in your post… These passages do not support your point. If you are convinced they do, then so be it. They convince you.” No, I gave that it must have all three components off the basic definition that is taught on what music really is. Then I gave the Biblical references to show what the primary component is. The purpose was to compare a melody driven music [Biblical] to that of rhythm driven music [secular]
“I do caution you as an older Brother. Be wary of contextual applications One could pull out any verse by itself to prove any point. "Judas went out and hanged himself. Go thou and do likewise."” As your brother, I ask that understand that I am keeping them in context to the passages they are found as well as the Bible as a whole. I agree that any single verse can be pulled out of context, that is why I cross-reference everything.
I don’t know personally if you are an “older” brother or not. If so, I honor you as such. I didn’t get saved until March 2, 1980.
“His Daughter made bad choices. She put the band before the faith. How is that the music?” What does this have to do with his daughter and her choices? The man made the decision because he couldn’t believe the church had compromised with the world and was playing secular styles of music. I stated nothing of his or her choices.
By the way, I agree with you about pride getting in the way a lot too for those leading music and making announcements during church services. We all have to make sure we judge ourselves daily and crucify ourselves daily.
“If you would like to go passage by passage on where I think more applications are a bit stretched we can do that through private e mail and you can repost them if you so choose.” Would you like me to start a new thread(s) that deals with each of the Biblical guidelines that I posted previously? That way we can see where we agree and disagree but using only the Bible as the final authority over personal opinion/views. Fair enough?
“S Response: I appreciate the passages mentioned and agree whole heartedly that we are not be conformed to this world. I don't see how this music confronts and goes against God's will. If it does and I am missing something then we have to throw out many of the old hymns because many many of them were written to old bar tunes. From what I have read this worked out well because many of the newly converted new the tunes and they had an easier time during worship.” I have already put a post elsewhere on this forum that dispels that myth that hymns were written from old bar tunes. Be careful about accepting urban legend as fact.
“S Reponse: Try as we might, none of us is 100% objective. All on this forum have a bias and a point to prove. Just your manner in your presentation and responses shows your bias Bryan. The fact that I respond (let alone what I say) shows I have a bias.” Yes, I have a bias – I LOVE CCM. But I don’t let that show. From your perspective, I bet you thought I hated it, huh? Why? Because I crucify my personal bias in light of Scripture.
“Good intentions? Brother Bryan, I am not talking intentions. Brother I have witnessed FRUIT!!! Real conversions and real growth. Sorry you haven't seen God work this way but I tell you He does. I have seen it!” You were the one who brought up intentions. As before, I brought up the issue of “fruit” of CCM that I have witnessed.
“S Response: I see the difference but it is obvious you miss my point. Doesn't matter if the titles is Christian, NFL or what ever, if a believer allows them selves to lose focus on Jesus then they have an issue and they need to seek God's face. This is about an internal struggle with pride and allowing something else to fill the space reserved for God. I'm not saying everything has been peachy for all that have been involved in CCM. Not at all. Just saying the music isn't necessarily the culprit. It's a heart issue.” No, music is not the culprit. It is the compromise and rebellion associated with it. You are right it is the heart condition – of the musician, the listener, etc.
“S Response: Hmmm like Fruit and the flowing of God's love through an individual? Keeping God's standards can't be done in the flesh. We are called to good works through the Holy Spirit after we are saved.” AMEN! That is almost word-for-word from another of my previous posts!!!! EXACTLY!
“S Response: Amen we are to keep God's commandments. Based on the 3 passages explored above I can't say I understand your application of the word commandment. Micah 6:8, John 6:28-29, Romans 13:8-10. Our rightousness is as filthy rags to God. When we submit first to Him and allow the Spirit to work in us, the good works will come. We don't need to try, just submit.” AMEN! Exactly what I have been trying to say! Thank you for reinforcing my previous points! Thank you!
“PS re lyrics, Bryan you brought lyrics into play in point one of your post with references” Only on one point. The majority of my posts dealt with the actual music. People sometime miss the difference and think I am against the lyrics. Some of the CCM lyrics are right on Biblically, whereas others are wishy-washy, for lack of better term. But my prior “point” [using your term] has been a discussion about the actual music. Is it Biblical or not? That is the primary question I have been trying to get people think about so they can be convinced 100% in their own minds/hearts – even if they don’t agree with me. I could care less about that.
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Post by stevefredine on Jan 25, 2006 11:38:39 GMT -5
Bryan, not splitting hairs with you. Words have meaning and it is important to know how each party is using them. That is why I used a independant respected resource.
Gotta use versess in Context brother. Otherwise we are like the mormons and their use of 1Cor 15:29 and their defense of baptism for the dead. The references you gave for # 9 were references to melody within conext. One says they go to they symphony to hear a certain concerto. They don't say they are going to hear violins, oboes, timpani etc.
"You are right it is the heart condition – of the musician, the listener, etc."
Then what is the point of all the rest of what was written?
For the record I am 49 and became a believer in 1962.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 26, 2006 7:55:53 GMT -5
Stump, “Words have meaning and it is important to know how each party is using them. That is why I used a independent respected resource.” I agree with you on words having distinct meaning and that is why I use the words “debate” and “discussion” rather than “argument”. I know the image that this entails in most minds. Most people tend to think of a debate as more refined whereas an argument is more of a brawl.
Here are a couple citations from World Book:
“Debate is a series of formal spoken arguments for and against a definite proposition. A proposition is a carefully worded statement that makes clear the positions of both the affirmative and negative sides. Debate differs from discussion. Discussion is the process by which a problem is recognized, defined, and investigated, and then solutions are explored. Debate is the process that evaluates a probable truth, a judgment, a causal relationship, or a single solution.”
“Most work in the field of logic deals with a form of reasoning called an argument. An argument consists of a set of statements called premises, followed by another statement called the conclusion. If the premises support the conclusion, the argument is correct. If the premises do not support the conclusion, the argument is incorrect. There are two types of arguments, deductive and inductive. A deductive argument is valid when the conclusion must be true if the premises are true. When the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises, a deductive argument is invalid. In an inductive argument, the conclusion is more or less probably true on the basis of the premises. Because the conclusion does not follow necessarily from the premises, an inductive argument is not usually deductively valid. An inductive argument may be correct or incorrect.”
So, I stand corrected on the definitions of debate and argument being the same. Again, my whole point was that I wanted the members of this forum to get back to the process of staying objective and rational, no matter what term we wish to use. I want us to get away from interjecting personal opinions, feelings, bias, etc. into the discussion/debate/argument. I want us to get to the point of using the Bible as the final authority in each discussion/debate/argument. Is that going to be too much to ask on this form, especially since it has “Christian” in the name?
”Gotta use verses in Context brother.” I agree 100%. If I quoted one verse out of context, I could see your point. Instead I site various passages so that I am “rightly dividing the word of truth” and presenting it by using “precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line”. You have yet to show me from the Bible where I have made an error in that practice.
“The references you gave for # 9 were references to melody within context. One says they go to they symphony to hear a certain concerto. They don't say they are going to hear violins, oboes, timpani etc.” Thank you for point out the context of the passages that I was also trying to bring out. Being someone who played the trumpet and then the baritone in a band for about 6 years, I can understand that. I have studied music theory. That is why I said that there are three components, but the Bible states only which is the primary component. Then we compare that to the secular musical styles to see the distinct difference [Romans 12:2; James 4:4; Titus 2:14; 1 John 2:15-16; 1 Peter 2:9]. So, is this the same point you were trying to make or am I missing your comment completely?
”Then what is the point of all the rest of what was written?” To explain what demonstrates if the heart is right with God. Someone who is in disobedience to guidelines, commandments, and principles found in the Bible is either doing this out of ignorance [as I did for years] or out of rebellion to the Bible and God. I have found that 90% of Christians have no idea what the Bible actually says on various topics. That is why is why I give “extended” explanations on this forum. I guess it is the teacher/educator in me! LOL!!
”For the record I am 49 and became a believer in 1962.” Praise God! Since God has allowed our paths to cross, maybe you will allow me to gleam some nuggets of wisdom that the Holy Spirit has given you from the Word of God. In the meantime, all I ask from you is to respect 1 Timothy 4:12 in my life. Fair enough?
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Post by stevefredine on Jan 26, 2006 10:53:34 GMT -5
”Gotta use verses in Context brother.” I agree 100%. If I quoted one verse out of context, I could see your point. Instead I site various passages so that I am “rightly dividing the word of truth” and presenting it by using “precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line”. You have yet to show me from the Bible where I have made an error in that practice."
S response: I did that already re your point #9. Telling the harlot Tyre to sing a melody is God's admonishon (?) towards the mechanical make up of music? No it's more like telling a hooker to go get a coke with no ice. Has nothing to do with the make up of soda but a specific direction.
""Then what is the point of all the rest of what was written?” To explain what demonstrates if the heart is right with God. Someone who is in disobedience to guidelines, commandments, and principles found in the Bible is either doing this out of ignorance [as I did for years] or out of rebellion to the Bible and God. I have found that 90% of Christians have no idea what the Bible actually says on various topics. That is why is why I give “extended” explanations on this forum. I guess it is the teacher/educator in me! LOL!!"
S response: This makes more sense if you include the first part of my quote which is a reference to the heart attitude being paramount and the source for the back slidden nature of an individual. Your original post sites the current musical style, CCM, as being the cause for all types of carnal degradation and decline or a falling away from Christ centerdness. If the carnal truly comes from the individual, then the premise of your original post is not valid. So if your agreement that it all begins within the individual, there was no purpose to the original post at all.
"”For the record I am 49 and became a believer in 1962.” Praise God! Since God has allowed our paths to cross, maybe you will allow me to gleam some nuggets of wisdom that the Holy Spirit has given you from the Word of God. In the meantime, all I ask from you is to respect 1 Timothy 4:12 in my life. Fair enough?"
S response: Fair enough however I don't think I have written anything that despises your youth. If I have, I apologize, it was unintentional. My responses have been intended to discuss what I had seen posted and not minimize you as an individual. Again if i fell short I apologize.
My info was not posted as a qualification of any kind. It was posted as simple bio background for those that don't know who I am. Not a better or worse, just who I am in part.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 27, 2006 6:14:53 GMT -5
Stump, “I did that already re your point #9.” I reread it. Read the Bible again for that passage, as well as the cross-references and other passages that I posted that corresponded to the principle there. Still missing whatever point you was trying to make. Can you bring it down to my level, please? Or maybe I should just go on and forget this one?
” This makes more sense if you include the first part of my quote which is a reference to the heart attitude being paramount and the source for the backslidden nature of an individual. Your original post sites the current musical style, CCM, as being the cause for all types of carnal degradation and decline or a falling away from Christ centerdness. If the carnal truly comes from the individual, then the premise of your original post is not valid. So if your agreement that it all begins within the individual, there was no purpose to the original post at all.” I guess we will have to disagree here. You think the heart is paramount, whereas I see it a combination of having a heart attitude right but also the heart being grounded in truth, such as what Jesus taught in 4th chapter of the Gospel of John. Someone can have the right attitude in life, but without being grounded in Biblical truth it is like trying to drive a Hummer without any fuel. It is like rowing a boat on dry land.
”Fair enough however I don't think I have written anything that despises your youth. If I have, I apologize, it was unintentional. My responses have been intended to discuss what I had seen posted and not minimize you as an individual. Again if i fell short I apologize.” No need to apologize. Didn’t say you had done that. Just asked for that favor. I had one Baptist preacher who sent me an email one time and stated, “I have been a preacher longer than you have been alive!” A few months later, he wrote me back and apologize by saying his attitude was wrong as well as the fact that the facts I had presented to him was right. I don’t say that to puff myself up but to give you an example of how I face that a lot in life. That is one reason I like this forum. We are all on equal ground on the age/experience level.
”My info was not posted as a qualification of any kind. It was posted as simple bio background for those that don't know who I am. Not a better or worse, just who I am in part.” Amen. True for each of us. That is the neat thing about how different each of our personal testimonies are, even though we are each saved exactly the same way.
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Post by stevefredine on Jan 30, 2006 10:34:46 GMT -5
Bryan,
I have not read your most recent posts nor do I intend to do so. There is no point in the tit for tat dialogue. You do not want a reasoned dialogue but to lord over people with your opinons and judgements. I am not here to change your mind about anything. Keep your opinions and your judgements. You have your opinions and others as myself may disagree. So be it. Per Romans 14, we are accountable to God not Bryan Kimble.
So Bryan. Feel free to respond and that will be that. You will have the last word and we can put this ugly sucker to bed.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 31, 2006 7:50:01 GMT -5
Stump, How can I respond to that? I don't understand the comment. Maybe you can give me clarification or examples where I am guilty of such a sin so that I can repent. Please help me with that. For example, I notice that it lists there are a total of 699 topics on this forum, throughout the various boards and sub-boards. These have generated a total 2,146 posts. Of these, 420 are from me. So for someone who is supposed to be dominating this forum and always trying to get in the “last word”, the facts don’t line up with that. Please notice how when people, such as Mike Lovelace, post information that is objective and Biblical – there is nothing else I can add to it, so I don’t attempt to.
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Post by Thane on Feb 6, 2006 13:17:11 GMT -5
i leave the board for a few weeks and come back and what a surprise, bryan is still trying to prove his point here! LOLOLOL. I missed this, glad to be back!
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Post by Doug Parrish on Feb 6, 2006 14:02:41 GMT -5
Hey, Thane. Glad you're back!
God Bless. Doug P.
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Post by pitbull on Feb 7, 2006 10:00:37 GMT -5
Thane, Welcome back. No point to prove, sorry to disappoint you!! LOL!!
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