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Post by stevefredine on Dec 28, 2005 0:00:04 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
I'm a little late to the party and thought I would throw in some of my own experiences just for a broadening of view. Everyone seems to be convinced in their own mind (Romans 14) so this is just fodder for thought.
I was raised in a Baptist household and became a believer at a young age and was baptized at 7 yrs old. I graduated from a Baptist college. I was not walking where I should have been as a young adult. Was married and divorced. For those interested it was a "biblical" divorce (if you need the nitty gritty send a private message.) I later married a Christian woman and raised her 2 sons and the daughter we had together. We celebrate our 19th in February. We have been living in Utah since '93. We are very active @ Calvary Chapel Salt Lake City, calvaryslc.org.
We had hymn books growing up. These were the "appropriate books. Later I found out that many of the really "spiritual" sounding songs were actually songs that were old bar tunes with Christian lyrics attached.
In my church growing up in the 70's, those of us that played HS football were smiled upon when our heads were shaved and frowned upon when it grew out. Same kids, still believers but all of a sudden we were bad guys. Our hair was not even close to girl like and there was no gender confusion on the part of any onlookers. They just found it inappropriate.
In Utah, most everyone (70% last census) has a short haircut, wears a suit on Sunday and sings songs without drums that sound appropriately spiritual. Trouble is most of them praise Joseph Smith and the pioneers.
As you walk into Calvay Chapel SLC there is a blue speckled wall directly in front of the front doors that proclaims "It's all about Jesus" in 3 ft high script letters. We sponsor many musical events. We get lots of outside kids coming to these events. I have personally worked many of these events. 100% of the time there are testimonies by the bands with a message and altar call. There are counselors to pray with the kids and give them a Bible and Bible study and they are directed to hook up with a Bible teaching Church. If info is forthcoming, there is follow up for these kids. Pillar has been on the bill for at least 2 of the events I have worked.
I personally have been most touched recently by the Glenn Kaiser Band. Glenn used to be in the Resurrection Band. The song "Rooster Crow" is a strong statement to believers when it challenges you for what you would say when the rooster crowed. Basically to be ready to stand and be accountable. Many more positive anecdotes I could recount but you get the point.
Whether any of this stuff is CCM or not, I don't know. What I do know is that I have seen unbelievers come to belief and I have seen believers grow through these ministries.
I am involved with several support ministries at our church. I am part of the prayer team for after service prayer. counseling and support. Sometimes out pastor wears a suit sometimes not. We have never been directed to wear anything specific. Summer time, I have been up front praying with people and I have shorts and flip flops on. I have prayed with guys in suits and guys in stained levi's and bad BO. The Holy Spirit ministered to us all.
I won't speak to the arguments and convictions re the scriptural applications and styles of music appropriate to the Body's use. I just know that God is working a great work in Salt Lake City in a non "traditional" way.
Brothers, thank you for your love of our Lord and your convictions toward His purpose.
Have a great New Year!
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Post by pitbull on Jan 4, 2006 8:58:17 GMT -5
Stump, Have you ever read the Parable of the Sower? When I hear of people coming to Jesus due to music, it makes me wonder if it is a real conversion or just an emotional experience. The Bible says that music will affect us, but cannot convict us - that is the job of preaching. Also, the music we listen to as believers should meet the guidelines found in the Word of God. Anything else, I believe is just a play on our emotions. Music can easily affect us and we have to be extremely careful about it.
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Post by Thane on Jan 4, 2006 10:53:02 GMT -5
Conviction is the job of the Holy Spirit, not preaching!
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Post by stevefredine on Jan 4, 2006 19:18:37 GMT -5
"Stump, Have you ever read the Parable of the Sower? When I hear of people coming to Jesus due to music, it makes me wonder if it is a real conversion or just an emotional experience. The Bible says that music will affect us, but cannot convict us - that is the job of preaching. Also, the music we listen to as believers should meet the guidelines found in the Word of God. Anything else, I believe is just a play on our emotions. Music can easily affect us and we have to be extremely careful about it. "
Brian,
I am very familiar with the parable of the Sower. I believe that this parable is applicable in total in all areas of life including music. Camp "mountain top" experiences, men's conferences even Billy Graham crusades. Which are "real" conversions? Only God knows the hearts.
Are we to wonder in judgement from a distance if someone comes to a declared faith in Christ at any venue or should we be part of the discipleship of this person at lthe very east in prayer to help solidify the decision or to have the person grow into a saving faith if the initial reaction wasn't salvation worthy? Can't we have joy that another lost soul is in the kingdom?
Should we be upset because someone claims Jesus but didn't come about their faith at an altar call or other manner we are comfortable with? Of course not.
In reading the exchanges prior, I note that the exceptions to CCM seem to be about people's behavior and not so much the music itself. Amy Grant case in point. I agree her behavior and interviews are not reflective of a biblical position. Many were touched by her music. I'm glad she's out of it know. There are many in secular music that live pristine lives. Does the music make them do it?
I appreciate the heartfelt conviction on this topic. I appreciate the arguments presented. I don't find that information presented as back up for Biblical positioning particularly compelling for the topic at hand. Just my opinion. It seems that when our sensibilities are ruffled it must not be right and God couldn't/wouldn't work that way. Most of the bad things attributed to CCM are heart attitudes that are common everywhere.
Agreed music/emotions are powerful. If the lyrics are right on and lives are changed, really changed, I can't argue with it. The Holy Spirit knows what's going on.
For me, this falls into a Romans 14 issue.
God bless ya'll!
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Post by pitbull on Jan 18, 2006 9:32:10 GMT -5
Stump, When I am talking about music, I am not referring to the words. If that was the point, I would have used the term lyrics. Also, I have presented no arguments here for you, just Biblical perspectives and facts. Whether you wish to accept them or reject them is up to you. I cannot force you to believe any thing from the Bible.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 18, 2006 9:33:15 GMT -5
Thane, You are correct that the Holy Spirit is the One who tenderizes the soil of the heart to receive the seed of the Word, waters the seed, and brings forth the harvest. We are only commanded to sow the seed and NEVER does the Bible say that we are to do that through music.
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Post by barry on Jan 18, 2006 11:10:15 GMT -5
If ANYONE is so weak minded that MUSIC can cause them to act different is a sign of how shallow minded they are. When Jesus was tempted did he run and scream "satan spoke to me," NO. He was stronger than that. People don't shoot themselves because music. It became another crutch for people to blame thier problems on. Man up once in a while. Shane you beat a drinking problem didn't you? But walking through the grocery store doesn't freak you out. Mike please don't take that first sentence the wrong way, if you get filled with the holly spirit from Christian music thats a beautiful thing. I just don't think that a strong mind/spirit is going to let whats on the radio crush thier faith in God.
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Post by barry on Jan 18, 2006 11:36:28 GMT -5
Why is it taht the same people are alwys argueing on here. How hard is it to accept that those who enter this forum are here due to the fact they have a common "goal". Mike and Shane went out on a limb in building this thing. I have'nt allways agreed with them on everything buit I still love em' and respect what they are trying to do. But so much of this gets old. Bryan if you feel your being singled out maybe YOU need to look at your self. Every thread I read you have to argue with someone, act like your here to correct them, or just never let anything die. Why? In todays world anything that can draw anyone closer to God is a great thing.Kids these days are not attracted to the old hellfire and brimstone type teachings. Be glad some churches are opening doors for the youth to be involved once again. Like allways you can post your standard 8 pager on how your right and we all don't know the Bible like you do. The most twisted ,comical part of this is a quote from a song where someone is praying and God tells him " He says he knows you better than you'll ever know him". Lovelace if you think about it long and hard enough you'll know who said it. That's the funniest part. Please let this crap come to an end and something productive may spew out of this site once more.
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Post by lovelace on Jan 18, 2006 11:57:47 GMT -5
Barry, my problem with music is that I don't even want to be around that type of language or theme. I have to admit, when I am around it....my foot still shakes and I want to bang my head. I end up finding myself "singing or screaming" the lyrics that those songs produce. You know how it is at the end of "down with the sickness". I have quit watching "R" rated movies and I am debating "PG-13". I just see no good in it. I don't think the lyrics are going to make me do anything, I just don't like hearing it. My biggest demon right now is FOOD! I have changed my music taste and I am happy with the choices I have made.
No, I don't consider myself weak minded and do NOT take offense at what you said. I just personally do not want to be around it. Someone yesterday was going to tell a dirty joke, then caught themselves and said I don't think you want to hear it. They said it was about a donkey and a rooster. I said that was enough and I could just imagine the punch line.
I don't think there is anyone that was more musical envolved other than myself. I created and took a lot of music to my old gym. I have said it before, just the sound of it made me physically sick. To each their own, that is between the person and Jesus Christ. I am not saying "anyone or everyone" is going to hell for listening to Disturbed. That is upto the individual and their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I am walking in a different path now and don't need that music/lyrics. I was probably the biggest Kiss fan out there. I had seen them about 10 times in concert. I just can't condone their lyrics anymore. That is on me. What bothers me the most is seeing the youth exposed to some of the profanity and anger. If I listen to a song and it makes me want to go out and hit someone, then I can't listen to it. If I listen to a song that is praising God and Worship, it gets my adrenaline pumping and I am ready to lift for Christ first! Not Mike Lovelace!
I think there is a little difference in the grocery store and a bar. If you have quit drinking, you don't want to be in an atmostphere where they are consuming it. I can look at a cd or record and it want bother me, but crank up a little "down with the sickness" and it is a different story. To each their own. I don't look down on those that want to listen to it. I am just trying to do what I personally feel is Glorifying God. I find myself singing songs of praise and worship all the time. I use to be singing of prostitues and chasing women.
I know some may think that all we do is argue on here? I think knowing how individuals feel about important subjects is not argueing but stating your beliefs. I have much love for all my brothers in Christ! Sometimes we disagree on some things, but we are still brothers in Christ. I would rather have an in depth conversation about biblical standards, than read some of the cutting down and name calling on other forums. Those are doing nothing but tearing down one another and causing division.
Barry, you need to check out some Disciple! I think you would like them!
God Bless, Mike
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Post by pitbull on Jan 20, 2006 9:25:16 GMT -5
Barry, CCM helped to cause me to be backslidden for almost a decade. Remember when it came to Saul and David, music was used to influence the king. Music is not neutral. As long as we follow God's guidelines given in the Bible, it is good music and will bless the soul. When we begin to compromise and follow secular standards, then it will lead us astray.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 20, 2006 9:31:56 GMT -5
Barry, “Bryan if you feel your being singled out maybe YOU need to look at your self.” No, I don’t feel like I am being singled out. Why do you get that impression?
“Every thread I read you have to argue with someone, act like your here to correct them, or just never let anything die. Why?” If you read my posts, they tend to be very objective and rational. I attempt to redirect any argument thrown at me into a discussion or debate rather than an argument since the Bible says “iron sharpeneth iron”. This is so that it will be a blessing to others as well as me. It is good to challenge the brethren to look into the Bible to see what it actually says rather than personal opinion or church teachings.
“In today’s world anything that can draw anyone closer to God is a great thing. Kids these days are not attracted to the old hellfire and brimstone type teachings.” That is strange. Our youth program has increased by 6-fold in three months by that old-fashion method. We have two young people (11 & 13 respectively) have brought 14 visitors to see the way a Biblical youth program can be done without compromising with the world.
“Be glad some churches are opening doors for the youth to be involved once again.” As long as it doesn’t compromise with the world, I praise God for it.
“Like always you can post your standard 8 pager on how your right and we all don't know the Bible like you do.” Wish at times this forum would allow me to post 8 pages!! LOL!! You have no idea how hard it is for an ole preacher like me not to get fired up!! LOL!!
“The most twisted, comical part of this is a quote from a song where someone is praying and God tells him "He says he knows you better than you'll ever know him". Huh?? What in the world are you talking about?
“Please let this crap come to an end and something productive may spew out of this site once more.” There is no need to cuss about it. So you don’t think discussing the Bible and Biblical doctrines among Christians is productive?
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Post by pitbull on Jan 20, 2006 9:34:45 GMT -5
Mike, I think you made a good analogy. Take my Dad for example. When he quit smoking, he became one of the strongest anti-smoking advocates you could have met. The Lord delivered him from that and gave him a heart to help others. He attacked tobacco without attacking the smokers personally. The same is true for me. God delivered me from CCM. I speak out against the music, not the performers or the believers listening to it. The thing people have to ask themselves is this - why are you defending this so strongly? I used to use the same arguments when I use to defend CCM, so I have heard most of these before - from my own mouth.
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Post by stevefredine on Jan 23, 2006 10:45:04 GMT -5
"Also, I have presented no arguments here for you, just Biblical perspectives and facts. Whether you wish to accept them or reject them is up to you. I cannot force you to believe any thing from the Bible. "
Bryan,you indeed have presented an argument. You are presenting a point and have supplied your support. Paul did this in his writings a lot. You are arguing a point in print.
I have no issues with the Bible. Your application of the text provided seems to be a stretch to serve your point. You seem convinced. So be it. I have no issue with you being convinced with your application.
The point that CCM caused you to be back slidden? Please. Yes certain circumstances for every individual can aid in not walking with God as intended. Each individual's choice is a heart choice. When the heart is right those things that are a hinderance can be dealt with through the spirit. If being involved as you were was not good for you, then it is good that you are out of it. Are there tight on believers in volved and growing through the genre both in listening and performance and listening? You bet. Just because something sounds good on the surface and is misused, doesn't mean that every thing that follows is also bad. From your personal experience you have seen bad. OK from mine I have seen great kingdom things. I'm not questioning the bad you have seen. I think the focus should be back to the heart and the intent. I have seen people grow and flourish as CCM was part of their lives.
Does the NFL cause people to back slide? No. People who put the NFL and themselves before God back slide. The same can be said of gardening and online forum discussions. In and of themselves, not a problem, but when they become primary and self becomes #1, then other poor choices follow easily. Again priorities are the key.
The focus on Jesus is the key. Not denominations, music, hairstyles etc. It is all about Jesus.
It is Jesus', Word & Blood. Jesus is the Blessed Hope. The author and finisher of our faith.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 23, 2006 11:07:08 GMT -5
Stump, "....you indeed have presented an argument." Maybe we are using different terms. An argument is an emotional, irrational tirade that has not logic to it. I try to avoid these because they cannot be ever won and people get their feelings hurt.
"You are presenting a point and have supplied your support. Paul did this in his writings a lot. You are arguing a point in print." Yes, I do present a point and give the evidence to support it and then answer any objections and questions, but I refuse to get involved in an argument. Those are pointless.
"Your application of the text provided seems to be a stretch to serve your point." Please explain. I attempt to allow the Bible to interpret itself rather than interjecting personal opinion. Please show me where I was wrong.
"The point that CCM caused you to be back slidden? Please." During my 13 years as a preacher, I have had to counsel many people that CCM has lead them away from being faithful to local church, from being faithful to the Bible, from being faithful to the doctrine of separation, from being faithful to the Biblical commandment of soul winning, etc. CCM is an attempt to take secular musical styles and slap "Christian" lyrics on it. CCM is a violation of Romans 12:2, James 4:4 and other passages. But it is just a sign of the times we live in - a time of worldly compromise rather than living a holy, separate life according to the Bible.
"From your personal experience you have seen bad. OK from mine I have seen great kingdom things. I'm not questioning the bad you have seen. I think the focus should be back to the heart and the intent. I have seen people grow and flourish as CCM was part of their lives." There are many people with good intentions. That is why I don't address the individuals. Rather I address it solely from a Biblical and objective perspective to deal with just the music, not even the lyrics.
"Does the NFL cause people to back slide? No. People who put the NFL and themselves before God back slide. The same can be said of gardening and online forum discussions. In and of themselves, not a problem, but when they become primary and self becomes #1, then other poor choices follow easily. Again priorities are the key." Agreed, but these things are openly worldly and don't claim to be Christian. Do you see the difference?
"The focus on Jesus is the key. Not denominations, music, hairstyles etc. It is all about Jesus." Biblical standards are the revealing of keeping the focus on Jesus.
"It is Jesus', Word & Blood. Jesus is the Blessed Hope. The author and finisher of our faith." Exactly. That is why He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." He didn't say which ones we were allowed to compromise on - such as clothes, hair, music, denominations, etc.
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Post by stevefredine on Jan 23, 2006 14:21:23 GMT -5
"Stump, "....you indeed have presented an argument." Maybe we are using different terms. An argument is an emotional, irrational tirade that has not logic to it. I try to avoid these because they cannot be ever won and people get their feelings hurt."
S Response: Websters II Dictionary: Argue: 1. To offer reasons for or against : debate. 2. To try to prove by reasoning : maintain.
Primarily an argument is not emotional or irrational. They can digress to that but initially they are defined as above.
"You are presenting a point and have supplied your support. Paul did this in his writings a lot. You are arguing a point in print." Yes, I do present a point and give the evidence to support it and then answer any objections and questions, but I refuse to get involved in an argument. Those are pointless."
S Response: Per the definition above, you are in an argument, debate.
"Your application of the text provided seems to be a stretch to serve your point." Please explain. I attempt to allow the Bible to interpret itself rather than interjecting personal opinion. Please show me where I was wrong.
S Response: I chose at random here willing to do any of these:
"9. Christian music MUST have all three components of music (melody, harmony, and rhythm) and melody is required to be the primary component. (Isaiah 23:16; 51:3; Ephesians 5:18-19)
Isaiah 23:15-17 (King James Version) 15And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.
16Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
17And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isaiah 51:2-4 (King James Version) 2Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
3For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
4Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
Ephesians 5:15-21 (King James Version) 15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Ok I've included verses on either side of the passages given. Did not feel there was enough room for the 20/20 rule of context.
None of these passages is an instruction re the MUST aspect ofthe components of music in your post.
The first Isaiah passage was addressed to the fallen harlot/city of Tyre and was not about what is or is not pleasing to God.
The second Isaiah passage is about the celebration of Zion's joy in the Lord.
The Epehsians passage is about believer interaction and the personal praising of God for the individual believer.
These passages do not support your point. If you are convinced they do, then so be it. They convince you.
I do caution you as an older Brother. Be wary of contextual applications One could pull out any verse by itself to prove any point. "Judas went out and hanged himself. Go thou and do likewise."
A non scriptural stretch:
"A gentleman [with a 20-year old daughter] I was witnessing to yesterday told me that he quit attending a church because they were only interested in their band and putting on a show. His words, not mine."
His Daughter made bad choices. She put the band before the faith. How is that the music? I know of a situation happening right now at a church where there is a worship leader that is a show person first and worshipper maybe not so much. The church has been blessed by the ministry of this person. This person is no longer leading because of the disruptive behind the scenes behavior. A new person is now leading. The church continues to be blessed by the same music. Very few knew what took place. The music didn't make this person behave badly, it was their attitude as a leader. (See Exekiel and Isaiah for accounts of the fall of the first worship leader cast out due to pride. Shoot the guy giving anouncements can think he's all that just for being in front.
If you would like to go passage by passage on where I think more applications are a bit stretched we can do that through private e mail and you can repost them if you so choose.
"The point that CCM caused you to be back slidden? Please." During my 13 years as a preacher, I have had to counsel many people that CCM has lead them away from being faithful to local church, from being faithful to the Bible, from being faithful to the doctrine of separation, from being faithful to the Biblical commandment of soul winning, etc. CCM is an attempt to take secular musical styles and slap "Christian" lyrics on it. CCM is a violation of Romans 12:2, James 4:4 and other passages. But it is just a sign of the times we live in - a time of worldly compromise rather than living a holy, separate life according to the Bible.
S Response: I appreciate the passages mentioned and agree whole heartedly that we are not be conformed to this world. I don't see how this music confronts and goes against God's will. If it does and I am missing something then we have to throw out many of the old hymns because many many of them were written to old bar tunes. From what I have read this worked out well because many of the newly converted new the tunes and they had an easier time during worship.
The music came from taverns. The converted knew the songs from the taverns. The lyrics were changed and both the converted person and converted music worshipped God. Do you think God rejects the worship cause the tune originated in a bar?
"From your personal experience you have seen bad. OK from mine I have seen great kingdom things. I'm not questioning the bad you have seen. I think the focus should be back to the heart and the intent. I have seen people grow and flourish as CCM was part of their lives." There are many people with good intentions. That is why I don't address the individuals. Rather I address it solely from a Biblical and objective perspective to deal with just the music, not even the lyrics.
S Reponse: Try as we might, none of us is 100% objective. All on this forum have a bias and a point to prove. Just your manner in your presentation and responses shows your bias Bryan. The fact that I respond (let alone what I say) shows I have a bias.
Good intentions? Brother Bryan, I am not talking intentions. Brother I have witnessed FRUIT!!! Real conversions and real growth. Sorry you haven't seen God work this way but I tell you He does. I have seen it!
"Does the NFL cause people to back slide? No. People who put the NFL and themselves before God back slide. The same can be said of gardening and online forum discussions. In and of themselves, not a problem, but when they become primary and self becomes #1, then other poor choices follow easily. Again priorities are the key." Agreed, but these things are openly worldly and don't claim to be Christian. Do you see the difference?"
S Response: I see the difference but it is obvious you miss my point. Doesn't matter if the titles is Christian, NFL or what ever, if a believer allows them selves to lose focus on Jesus then they have an issue and they need to seek God's face. This is about an internal struggle with pride and allowing something else to fill the space reserved for God. I'm not saying everything has been peachy for all that have been involved in CCM. Not at all. Just saying the music isn't necessarily the culprit. It's a heart issue.
""The focus on Jesus is the key. Not denominations, music, hairstyles etc. It is all about Jesus." Biblical standards are the revealing of keeping the focus on Jesus."
S Response: Hmmm like Fruit and the flowing of God's love through an individual? Keeping God's standards can't be done in the flesh. We are called to good works through the Holy Spirit after we are saved.
"It is Jesus', Word & Blood. Jesus is the Blessed Hope. The author and finisher of our faith." Exactly. That is why He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." He didn't say which ones we were allowed to compromise on - such as clothes, hair, music
S Response: Amen we are to keep God's commandments. Based on the 3 passages explored above I can't say I understand your application of the word commandment. Micah 6:8, John 6:28-29, Romans 13:8-10. Our rightousness is as filthy rags to God. When we submit first to Him and allow the Spirit to work in us, the good works will come. We don't need to try, just submit.
For meditation 1 Sam 16:7
PS re lyrics, Bryan you brought lyrics into play in point one of your post with references
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