Music: Biblical Guideline #1

[pitbull]

I have learned the hard way that the Bible teaches that the first principle or guideline governing Biblical music is that Christian music should praise the Lord Jesus Christ — not man. Now, you would think this point is unnecessary for CHRISTian music. After all, CHRISTian means "a follower, believer of Jesus Christ". And if it is truly Christian music, it should testify, praise and sing about the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, the PURPOSE of Christian music is to PRAISE the Lord. Consider the following passages from Psalms, a book of the Bible dedicated to music.

"I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing PRAISE to thy name, O thou most High." [Psalm 9:2]

"Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength: so will we SING and PRAISE thy power." [Psalm 21:13]

"The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my SONG will I PRAISE him." [Psalm 28:7]

"PRAISE the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise." [Psalm 33:2-3]

Have I misquoted these verses or taken them out of context? Do you agree that this is the purpose of true CHRISTian music, including the lyrics?

I believe that when someone truly gets saved, God puts a NEW song in their mouth. And that song is "PRAISE unto our God" — the result of salvation is — PRAISE. And it's not something we work up, or "fake", or just do — but it's something God "puts"! Christian music is "praise unto our God", not for the purpose of entertainment like the world uses music. Entertainment may happen as a sidebar, but the purpose is PRAISE.

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath PUT a NEW SONG in my mouth, even PRAISE unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psalm 40:1-3

Did you read that? The DIRECT result of being saved is "A NEW SONG" even "PRAISE unto our God". REAL Christian/Biblical music PRAISES the Lord!

Even when the apostle Paul and Silas were thrown in jail and in stocks they sang praises to the Lord (notice: they weren't singing the blues – they "sang praises unto God").
And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and SANG PRAISES unto God: and the prisoners heard them. Acts 16:22

Sadly, much [not all] of what goes by the name CHRISTian Music today is NOT CHRISTian. The music does NOT testify, praise or sing about the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, a great deal of it does not even mention the Lord Jesus Christ.

MUCH [not all] of today's Christian Music goes out it's way to avoid the name of Jesus Christ – or any Christian content whatsoever. I know why they do that.

The musicians claim they don't want to be "preachy". They also do this to increase their marketing to the general public [e.g. cross-over musicians]. Both of these intentions go directly against this principle/guideline.

Even though I am not a Protestant [or even a Lutheran], I am going to quote Martin Luther here. Martin Luther puts it bluntly —
"whoever does NOT want to sing and speak of it shows that he does not believe it."
"We should praise God with both word and music, namely by proclaiming [the Word of God] through music. . .He who believes earnestly cannot be quiet about it. But he must gladly and willingly sing and speak about it so that others may come and hear it. And whoever does NOT want to sing and speak of it shows that he does not believe it." (Don Cusic, The Sound of Light, p. 15)

Does that make sense? Is that not what the Bible teaches? Do we agree upon this Biblical guideline/principle for what can be considered Christian music?

[stevefredine]

You know Bryan, Barry had some great points.

"I have learned the hard way that the Bible teaches that the first principle or guideline governing Biblical music is that Christian music should praise the Lord Jesus Christ — not man. Now, you would think this point is unnecessary for CHRISTian music. After all, CHRISTian means "a follower, believer of Jesus Christ". And if it is truly Christian music, it should testify, praise and sing about the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, the PURPOSE of Christian music is to PRAISE the Lord. Consider the following passages from Psalms, a book of the Bible dedicated to music.

"I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing PRAISE to thy name, O thou most High." [Psalm 9:2]

"Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength: so will we SING and PRAISE thy power." [Psalm 21:13]

"The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my SONG will I PRAISE him." [Psalm 28:7]

"PRAISE the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise." [Psalm 33:2-3]

Have I misquoted these verses or taken them out of context? Do you agree that this is the purpose of true CHRISTian music, including the lyrics?

S response: By "this" I believe you to mean to Praise God? Yes I believe that is a component. I prefer Christ or God centered. David was a "man after God's own heart". David wrote many Psalms which were songs that were used in worship. Not all of David's psalms were up beat. He acknowledged God's salvation and providence but he was hardly giddy about his then current negative situations.

I believe that when someone truly gets saved, God puts a NEW song in their mouth. And that song is "PRAISE unto our God" — the result of salvation is — PRAISE. And it's not something we work up, or "fake", or just do — but it's something God "puts"! Christian music is "praise unto our God", not for the purpose of entertainment like the world uses music. Entertainment may happen as a sidebar, but the purpose is PRAISE.

S response:Praise is one purpose in singing to God but I cannot say it is the only one. The bible simply does not teach it as the only one.

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath PUT a NEW SONG in my mouth, even PRAISE unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psalm 40:1-3

Did you read that? The DIRECT result of being saved is "A NEW SONG" even "PRAISE unto our God". REAL Christian/Biblical music PRAISES the Lord!

S response: Yes I read it and was familiar with it before. Yes salvation is the ultimate reason to praise God. Absoulutely there is a new regenerated spirit that now has a communion with The Most High. As a believer, are all days great? David had bad days and he sang to God.

Even when the apostle Paul and Silas were thrown in jail and in stocks they sang praises to the Lord (notice: they weren't singing the blues – they "sang praises unto God").



S response: Have you heard the Glenn Kaiser Band? He praises God and he does it through blues/minor chords. Great ministry. God has blessed them and there is lots of Fruit to show how God has worked. Just one example.



And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and SANG PRAISES unto God: and the prisoners heard them. Acts 16:22

Sadly, much [not all] of what goes by the name CHRISTian Music today is NOT CHRISTian. The music does NOT testify, praise or sing about the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, a great deal of it does not even mention the Lord Jesus Christ.

MUCH [not all] of today's Christian Music goes out it's way to avoid the name of Jesus Christ – or any Christian content whatsoever. I know why they do that.

The musicians claim they don't want to be "preachy". They also do this to increase their marketing to the general public [e.g. cross-over musicians]. Both of these intentions go directly against this principle/guideline.



S response: This is a shame on the individual writers and performers. As stated from 1 Sam God knows there heart and the will be held accountable by God. This is not an indictment on entire genre however.

Even though I am not a Protestant [or even a



S response from Webster's II Dictionary: Protestant: 1. A member of one of the Christian churches arising from the reformation.


Lutheran], I am going to quote Martin Luther here. Martin Luther puts it bluntly —
"whoever does NOT want to sing and speak of it shows that he does not believe it."


S response: Though Luther is not the Bible I do agree with him however this does not make an indictment against a whole genre.



"We should praise God with both word and music, namely by proclaiming [the Word of God] through music. . .He who believes earnestly cannot be quiet about it. But he must gladly and willingly sing and speak about it so that others may come and hear it. And whoever does NOT want to sing and speak of it shows that he does not believe it." (Don Cusic, The Sound of Light, p. 15)

Does that make sense? Is that not what the Bible teaches? Do we agree upon this Biblical guideline/principle for what can be considered Christian music?

S response: I believe what you have presented is an aspect to Godly music. I believe that there is a broader vision to Godly music than what you believe there is. I believe you limit it per your experiences. The genre isn't bad in and of itself, per your agreement on the other thread, it is the heart attitude in the individual.

Hmmm food for thought, is your flag unbiblical? It doesn't mention Jesus, or God in any way. There are some oblique references that an insider would know but to an outsider, Baptists are the answer. Shouldn't a banner of a Christian group be clearer? Just wondered how the logic stands up here.

Perhaps this music difference is a Romans 14 issue. I am convinced in one way, you are convinced in another. If we believe there is one God represented in 3 persons and that our only source for life and salvation is the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus, then we are brothers. Be convinced in your position. Go in peace

[pitbull]

Stump,
“You know Bryan, Barry had some great points.”
Such as? Maybe I was not intellectual enough to catch them as I was ducking the “bricks”!! LOL!!

If you will bear with me, I will ask you some rhetorical questions about his points:
1. Do you think that my posts are about me when I am promoting Jesus Christ and Biblical teachings instead of anything personal?
2. Do you think that I am filled with pride when I “earnestly contend for the faith” from only a Biblical perspective while not caring what others think of me personally?
3. Do you think I am being defensive when the only things I post in a defensive nature is when some misquotes me, assumes I said something, or tries to “put words in my mouth”?
4. Do you agree with Barry that we shouldn’t post Bible verses in our posts on a CHRISTIAN forum?
5. Do you agree with the minuscule amount of time that I spend on this forum demonstrates that I don’t have a life? Remember that I spend more time in one day eating than I spend in an entire week on this forum.

If you [and Barry and others] will be honest with me, you will have to admit that my most of my posts on this forum generally fall into three categories:
1. About the Lord Jesus Christ
2. About soul winning [a.k.a. witnessing, evangelism, sharing the Gospel]
3. About making the Bible practical so that we can live a holy, separate life unto the Lord

You will have to excuse me if I missed the great points that he was trying to make during his emotional tirade. Please open my eyes to the great points that I missed. That is not being sarcastic but an honest opening to you to actually show me.

”By "this" I believe you to mean to Praise God? Yes I believe that is a component. I prefer Christ or God centered. David was a "man after God's own heart". David wrote many Psalms which were songs that were used in worship. Not all of David's psalms were up beat. He acknowledged God's salvation and providence but he was hardly giddy about his then current negative situations.”
Yes, I agree with you 100% that this is just one component to Biblical music. That is what I have been trying to say! I have only been saying it is the primary component – not the only one. Thank you! Now, I want to give you something else for you to honestly consider. Dr. Garlock and Kurt Woetzel, in their book, Music in the Balance, give a summary of the goals of 130 individual CCM performers on why they use music. Here is the chart as it appears in Music in the Balance (p. 111):
GOALS MENTIONED FREQUENCY
Evangelism 66
Hope and Encouragement 28
Communicate God 16
Discipleship and Commitment 15
Positive Influence 11
Speak to Contemporary Issues 11
Praise 3
Nebulous 28
Used Scripture 1
I personally think it is a sad testimony of these artists when only 3 said to praise God was their primary purpose for using music. Do you see my point? This is not every CCM artist, but it something I noticed when I was in those circles – it was not a priority for them. Yes, I know I am generalizing and yes, I know there are exceptions to the rule.
Yes, I also agree that not all of David’s Psalms are 100% “bubbly” but they all turn to praising God before they end.

”Praise is one purpose in singing to God but I cannot say it is the only one. The bible simply does not teach it as the only one.”
Didn’t say it was the only one. Don’t assume, brother. I see too many people attempt to do that. Just keep in mind that what I post is what I mean. Don’t try to read into anything extra, since I don’t put anything between the lines! I am not smart enough to figure out how to do something like that anyhow!! LOL!!

”Yes I read it and was familiar with it before. Yes salvation is the ultimate reason to praise God. Absolutely there is a new regenerated spirit that now has a communion with The Most High. As a believer, are all days great? David had bad days and he sang to God.”
Agree 100% with you. I find that when I am having a bad day, I start to singing praises to God [such as “Count Your Many Blessings” or “Blessed Assurance”] and my attitude changes. That is all part of the fact that music will affect your spirit. This is one of the main reasons that I don’t believe the myth that music is neutral.

”Have you heard the Glenn Kaiser Band? He praises God and he does it through blues/minor chords. Great ministry. God has blessed them and there is lots of Fruit to show how God has worked. Just one example.”
I hope and pray that you are right that they have Biblical “fruit” to present from their ministry. I am trying to avoid getting into dealing with specific exceptions to the rule. This is true in many aspects of life. There is one Protestant denomination [name withheld to protect the guilty and innocent] that I consider to be on the border of becoming heretical. Yet, I know of some local congregations in that denomination that are more fundamental than me on Biblical doctrines, separation, soul winning, and standards. They are the exception rather than the rule. Does that make sense?

”This is a shame on the individual writers and performers. As stated from 1 Sam God knows there heart and the will be held accountable by God. This is not an indictment on entire genre however.”
But if you see it over and over again within that genre, shouldn’t it give you pause to question that particular genre? Yes, we can site exceptions to the rule but if we notice a pattern forming, can’t we use either deductive or inductive reasoning to come to a logical conclusion?

”Webster's II Dictionary: Protestant: 1. A member of one of the Christian churches arising from the reformation.”
I agree with you on that definition. That is exactly why I can say I am not a Protestant. I don’t belong to a church that arose out of the Reformation.

”Though Luther is not the Bible I do agree with him however this does not make an indictment against a whole genre.”
Maybe. Maybe not. But this quote does apply to this Biblical guideline, correct?

”I believe what you have presented is an aspect to Godly music. I believe that there is a broader vision to Godly music than what you believe there is. I believe you limit it per your experiences. The genre isn't bad in and of itself, per your agreement on the other thread, it is the heart attitude in the individual.”
Yes, this is just ONE aspect to Godly music and it is the primary aspect – but I have not said that it is the only aspect. If this was the only guideline in the Bible, I would agree with you 100% on this. That is why I want to discuss each different guideline separately.

”Hmmm food for thought, is your flag unbiblical? It doesn't mention Jesus, or God in any way. “
Some food for thought for you, if you want to take the view of the JW’s, any flag would be unbiblical and a form of idolatry.

And by the way, yes, the Baptist [not mine – I didn’t make it] flag does clearly and distinctly mention Jesus and God.
1. THE BOOK - the inspired Word of God, as our rule for faith and practice, with Jesus Christ as the Word Incarnate
2. THE BLOOD - by Christ for the remission of sin
3. THE BLESSED HOPE - the return of Christ to unite us together in Heaven with Him for all eternity
Anyone with any familiarity with the Bible and the Christian faith – lost or saved – cannot reasonably assume that Jesus or God is being ignored in that flag. And it does it in a very bold fashion.

“There are some oblique references that an insider would know but to an outsider, Baptists are the answer. Shouldn't a banner of a Christian group be clearer? Just wondered how the logic stands up here.”
That was the whole purpose in the creation of the Baptist flag - Dr. D.L. Green set out to design a flag that would be attractive in appearance and distinct in its message as compared to how the “Christian Flag” has a blurry distinctiveness. Compare the boldness and Biblical content of both and then tell me which one is clearer.

”Perhaps this music difference is a Romans 14 issue. I am convinced in one way, you are convinced in another.”
To some of the aspects of music, I would agree with you on that. I know one pastor who agrees with me on every aspect of Biblical music other than drums. Guess what? We don’t argue or discuss it. It is a minor point. Now, if we disagree on all ten of the guidelines, then there may be some division of fellowship. There is a big difference between having minor disagreement and having a total disagreement. Do you agree?

“If we believe there is one God represented in 3 persons and that our only source for life and salvation is the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus, then we are brothers.”
Yes, if we are both born-again by the blood of Jesus Christ following in the pattern that salvation is by the grace of God and received through faith – then we are both brothers in the family of God. But then this gets into a distinction between relationship and fellowship.

“Be convinced in your position. Go in peace.”
I agree only as long as the conviction is grounded in the Bible and not based personal preference, personal experience, personal feelings, personal opinion, etc. That has been my entire reason behind my EVERY one of my posts – encouraging the brethren to question all things in light of Scripture. “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” [Acts 17:11] Is that a bad thing?

[stevefredine]

""Stump,
“You know Bryan, Barry had some great points.”
Such as? Maybe I was not intellectual enough to catch them as I was ducking the “bricks”!! LOL!!""

S response: Perhaps he wasn't throuwing them at you but was returning the bricks he had felt were tossed his way via words, attitudes etc. Some of your writing though maybe accurate, does have the tone of talking down to the less informed rather than sharing shoulder to shoulder.

"If you will bear with me, I will ask you some rhetorical questions about his points:
1. Do you think that my posts are about me when I am promoting Jesus Christ and Biblical teachings instead of anything personal?"

S response: I will bypass the rhetorical and answer your questions. You do take a superior tone and talk down at times. Have you overtly said that Bryan is the king of all or anything like that? No. Do you continue to argue a personal bias with support that doesn't exactly jive? Yes I believe so. But my opinon is not the important thing What fruit are you gaining from what and how you present? Good fruit? Bad fruit? Not my call.

2. Do you think that I am filled with pride when I “earnestly contend for the faith” from only a Biblical perspective while not caring what others think of me personally?"

S response: When you contend for the faith in love your cool. When you debate with knee jerk reactions re a personal bias, not so much.


"3. Do you think I am being defensive when the only things I post in a defensive nature is when some misquotes me, assumes I said something, or tries to “put words in my mouth”?"


S response: When all you have to do is cut and paste your original quote to set it straight but instead talk about how wrong the other guy is, then yes i believe you are defensive.

"4. Do you agree with Barry that we shouldn’t post Bible verses in our posts on a CHRISTIAN forum?"

S response: This site has multiple places for discussion of scripture. Some areas are more condusive than others. The training section maybe not so much. Other sections maybe more.


"5. Do you agree with the minuscule amount of time that I spend on this forum demonstrates that I don’t have a life? Remember that I spend more time in one day eating than I spend in an entire week on this forum."

S response: How can I agree to something I have no knowledge about nor is it pertinant to any of the subjects we have discussed. I know nothing of your rel life other than what you have shared. Perhaps though if more time were spent on responses here, impressions may be softened with longer pondered posts.



If you [and Barry and others] will be honest with me, you will have to admit that my most of my posts on this forum generally fall into three categories:
1. About the Lord Jesus Christ
2. About soul winning [a.k.a. witnessing, evangelism, sharing the Gospel]
3. About making the Bible practical so that we can live a holy, separate life unto the Lord

You will have to excuse me if I missed the great points that he was trying to make during his emotional tirade. Please open my eyes to the great points that I missed. That is not being sarcastic but an honest opening to you to actually show me.

S response: you saying it wasn't sarcastic doesn't make it so. It is sarcastic. And it appears that you intended it that way. how bout this: Seriously, help me out here, I really didn't get anything out of Barry's post. He bothered to post it so there could be something there, What did I miss?

That sounds a little less sarcastic doesn't it?

”By "this" I believe you to mean to Praise God? Yes I believe that is a component. I prefer Christ or God centered. David was a "man after God's own heart". David wrote many Psalms which were songs that were used in worship. Not all of David's psalms were up beat. He acknowledged God's salvation and providence but he was hardly giddy about his then current negative situations.”
Yes, I agree with you 100% that this is just one component to Biblical music. That is what I have been trying to say! I have only been saying it is the primary component – not the only one. Thank you! Now, I want to give you something else for you to honestly consider. Dr. Garlock and Kurt Woetzel, in their book, Music in the Balance, give a summary of the goals of 130 individual CCM performers on why they use music. Here is the chart as it appears in Music in the Balance (p. 111):
GOALS MENTIONED FREQUENCY
Evangelism 66
Hope and Encouragement 28
Communicate God 16
Discipleship and Commitment 15
Positive Influence 11
Speak to Contemporary Issues 11
Praise 3
Nebulous 28
Used Scripture 1
I personally think it is a sad testimony of these artists when only 3 said to praise God was their primary purpose for using music. Do you see my point? This is not every CCM artist, but it something I noticed when I was in those circles – it was not a priority for them. Yes, I know I am generalizing and yes, I know there are exceptions to the rule.
Yes, I also agree that not all of David’s Psalms are 100% “bubbly” but they all turn to praising God before they end.


S response: You just switched from a discussion of the Biblical components to music to a study of lyrical content which is what you said you weren't discussing when the first thread started.

”Praise is one purpose in singing to God but I cannot say it is the only one. The bible simply does not teach it as the only one.”
Didn’t say it was the only one. Don’t assume, brother. I see too many people attempt to do that. Just keep in mind that what I post is what I mean. Don’t try to read into anything extra, since I don’t put anything between the lines! I am not smart enough to figure out how to do something like that anyhow!! LOL!!

S response: " the PURPOSE of Christian music is to PRAISE the Lord" You go on in" Perhaps you don't feel that it is the only component but the way you posted leads one in that direction.

”Yes I read it and was familiar with it before. Yes salvation is the ultimate reason to praise God. Absolutely there is a new regenerated spirit that now has a communion with The Most High. As a believer, are all days great? David had bad days and he sang to God.”
Agree 100% with you. I find that when I am having a bad day, I start to singing praises to God [such as “Count Your Many Blessings” or “Blessed Assurance”] and my attitude changes. That is all part of the fact that music will affect your spirit. This is one of the main reasons that I don’t believe the myth that music is neutral.

”Have you heard the Glenn Kaiser Band? He praises God and he does it through blues/minor chords. Great ministry. God has blessed them and there is lots of Fruit to show how God has worked. Just one example.”
I hope and pray that you are right that they have Biblical “fruit” to present from their ministry. I am trying to avoid getting into dealing with specific exceptions to the rule.

S response: Rule? Exceptions? This is where you come off arogant brother. You make blanket statement based on your personal experiences and maybe just maybe outside of the sphere of your personal experience there is some good Godly stuff going on?

This is true in many aspects of life. There is one Protestant denomination [name withheld to protect the guilty and innocent] that I consider to be on the border of becoming heretical. Yet, I know of some local congregations in that denomination that are more fundamental than me on Biblical doctrines, separation, soul winning, and standards. They are the exception rather than the rule. Does that make sense?

S: response can't unilateraly throw a blanket on the party.

”This is a shame on the individual writers and performers. As stated from 1 Sam God knows there heart and the will be held accountable by God. This is not an indictment on entire genre however.”
But if you see it over and over again within that genre, shouldn’t it give you pause to question that particular genre? Yes, we can site exceptions to the rule but if we notice a pattern forming, can’t we use either deductive or inductive reasoning to come to a logical conclusion?


S response: Over and over? I have seen positive over and over. I have seen pride and arrogance in leaders of congregations that don't partake in CCM. It is not the genre it is the internal pride of the individual.

If I were involved in the music industry perhaps I may see it differently. I am in the Special Coatings industry. I know many believers in my industry. The majority of them claim Christ as the only way to God through His Grace. The majority of them have business practices that aren't up right and honest yet they proclaim Christ. Special Coatings at fault? Nope the atttiude of the individual is. Regardless of what profession one is in, there are principles to follow as a believer.



”Webster's II Dictionary: Protestant: 1. A member of one of the Christian churches arising from the reformation.”
I agree with you on that definition. That is exactly why I can say I am not a Protestant. I don’t belong to a church that arose out of the Reformation.

”Though Luther is not the Bible I do agree with him however this does not make an indictment against a whole genre.”
Maybe. Maybe not. But this quote does apply to this Biblical guideline, correct?

”I believe what you have presented is an aspect to Godly music. I believe that there is a broader vision to Godly music than what you believe there is. I believe you limit it per your experiences. The genre isn't bad in and of itself, per your agreement on the other thread, it is the heart attitude in the individual.”
Yes, this is just ONE aspect to Godly music and it is the primary aspect – but I have not said that it is the only aspect. If this was the only guideline in the Bible, I would agree with you 100% on this. That is why I want to discuss each different guideline separately.

S response: If this is the case, perhaps more time in developing your full position could be helpful. Seems that a lot of us have one view of your writing and you have another. You have an impressive ability to irritate people Bryan. I am not talking about your message, I am talking about your style of communication.

”Hmmm food for thought, is your flag unbiblical? It doesn't mention Jesus, or God in any way. “
Some food for thought for you, if you want to take the view of the JW’s, any flag would be unbiblical and a form of idolatry.

And by the way, yes, the Baptist [not mine – I didn’t make it]

S response: I'm calling BS hear Bryan. You have claimed it as yours by using it as part of your posting as you do. I wear a Mickey Mouse shirt every day but that doesn't make me Walt Disney but if I have other shirts to wear, it does say something about me and what I am about.

flag does clearly and distinctly mention Jesus and God.
1. THE BOOK - the inspired Word of God, as our rule for faith and practice, with Jesus Christ as the Word Incarnate
2. THE BLOOD - by Christ for the remission of sin
3. THE BLESSED HOPE - the return of Christ to unite us together in Heaven with Him for all eternity
Anyone with any familiarity with the Bible and the Christian faith – lost or saved – cannot reasonably assume that Jesus or God is being ignored in that flag. And it does it in a very bold fashion.

“There are some oblique references that an insider would know but to an outsider, Baptists are the answer. Shouldn't a banner of a Christian group be clearer? Just wondered how the logic stands up here.”
That was the whole purpose in the creation of the Baptist flag - Dr. D.L. Green set out to design a flag that would be attractive in appearance and distinct in its message as compared to how the “Christian Flag” has a blurry distinctiveness. Compare the boldness and Biblical content of both and then tell me which one is clearer.


S response: The Christian flag is not germane to this discussion. I was merely applying the logic you had used previously to the Baptist flag that you had used for CCM. To Baptists it makes perfect sense but to outsiders, including me who was raised in a Baptist Church and graduated from a Baptist college, that flag is a proclamation of what the Baptists have. Yes the Blood refers to Jesus' sacrifice, of course it does. But per your rule of something needing to be overtly obvious to all, it is definately not. I'm not telling anyone to quit flying that banner just pointing out that by casual glance it appears that Baptists are the way, the truth and the light. Check around, I don't think i am alone in this.

”Perhaps this music difference is a Romans 14 issue. I am convinced in one way, you are convinced in another.”
To some of the aspects of music, I would agree with you on that. I know one pastor who agrees with me on every aspect of Biblical music other than drums. Guess what? We don’t argue or discuss it. It is a minor point. Now, if we disagree on all ten of the guidelines, then there may be some division of fellowship. There is a big difference between having minor disagreement and having a total disagreement. Do you agree?

S response: If you mean the means of salvation vs being pre and post trib? then I agree that one is a deal breaker and the other is not.

“If we believe there is one God represented in 3 persons and that our only source for life and salvation is the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus, then we are brothers.”
Yes, if we are both born-again by the blood of Jesus Christ following in the pattern that salvation is by the grace of God and received through faith – then we are both brothers in the family of God. But then this gets into a distinction between relationship and fellowship.

“Be convinced in your position. Go in peace.”
I agree only as long as the conviction is grounded in the Bible and not based personal preference, personal experience, personal feelings, personal opinion, etc. That has been my entire reason behind my EVERY one of my posts – encouraging the brethren to question all things in light of Scripture. “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” [Acts 17:11] Is that a bad thing?

S response:
Romans 14:4-10 (King James Version)
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

[Shane Gaydon]

This is a great debate. Both of you have great points and I am learning a great deal from this. If I had one piece of advice for you Bryan, I would ask you to take a close look at how you try to reach others with your message. I have found that I have to give just a little to reach them sometimes. Although I do stand firm with you on doctrine and standards, I will have to agree that you can seem a bit arrogant and pushy at times. Now that is not an attack. I have backed you many times and I will continue to do so. But when someone comes on here and sees a long list of about 15 posts telling them how to dress, act and what music they have to listen to that can leave a bad taste in their mouth. I'm just saying that maybe you could back off that stuff a bit and just be a regular guy that loves the Lord every now and then. I believe if you would add more posts with just general conversation people could get to know you better for who you are. I know you are preacher and preaching is what you are called to do but maybe you could spend a little more time just being a friend to those who visit here rather than trying to constantly be their pastor. Just food for thought brother.

[pitbull]

Stump,
”Perhaps he wasn't throwing them at you but was returning the bricks he had felt were tossed his way via words, attitudes etc. Some of your writing though maybe accurate, does have the tone of talking down to the less informed rather than sharing shoulder to shoulder.”
The reason you [and maybe Barry] may get that impression is because I don’t put any of my personality or emotions in my posts. I am the type of person who discusses and presents things differently according to the environment. This environment is an Internet forum, which is impartial by nature, in which I am discussing Biblical topics with people that I may never be blessed with every meeting during this life. Due those reasons, I remove myself out of the equation, so all you get is the facts. Sort of like Joe Friday, but you may be too “young” to get that analogy. *wink*

”I will bypass the rhetorical and answer your questions. You do take a superior tone and talk down at times.”
Please see previous comment.

“Have you overtly said that Bryan is the king of all or anything like that? No. Do you continue to argue a personal bias with support that doesn't exactly jive? Yes I believe so.”
Such as?

“But my opinion is not the important thing.”
Thank you. That has been one of my points all along. That is why you won’t get my opinion on this forum.

“What fruit are you gaining from what and how you present? Good fruit? Bad fruit? Not my call.”
Don’t understand the question. Honest.

”When you contend for the faith in love your cool. When you debate with knee jerk reactions re a personal bias, not so much.”
I agree with that 100%. That is why I take time to soak each response in prayer and time in the Bible while suppressing self.

”When all you have to do is cut and paste your original quote to set it straight but instead talk about how wrong the other guy is, then yes i believe you are defensive.”
Tried that, but it didn’t work. People still tried to twist what I posted into something different from what I actually said.

”This site has multiple places for discussion of scripture. Some areas are more conducive than others. The training section maybe not so much. Other sections maybe more.”
Exactly. Thank you. I have been saying that for a while, though some seem to miss the point.

“How can I agree to something I have no knowledge about nor is it pertinent to any of the subjects we have discussed. I know nothing of your real life other than what you have shared. Perhaps though if more time were spent on responses here, impressions may be softened with longer pondered posts.”
Due to more important priorities in life, I generally don’t spend a lot of time on my posts directly. Also, I really don’t like to put very much of myself in the posts. I try to make them as impersonal as possible.

“you saying it wasn't sarcastic doesn't make it so. It is sarcastic. And it appears that you intended it that way. how bout this: Seriously, help me out here, I really didn't get anything out of Barry's post. He bothered to post it so there could be something there, What did I miss? That sounds a little less sarcastic doesn't it?”
To me, your version sounds extremely sarcastic. Just how I take it. The way you reword it comes across very arrogant and attacking to me. That is what I was attempting to avoid and that is why I worded it the way I did.

”You just switched from a discussion of the Biblical components to music to a study of lyrical content which is what you said you weren't discussing when the first thread started.”
No, still dealing with the primary purpose being to praise God. Didn’t switch the discussion. Sorry if I lost you while sticking to the same topic. Please forgive me.

””the PURPOSE of Christian music is to PRAISE the Lord" You go on in" Perhaps you don't feel that it is the only component but the way you posted leads one in that direction.”
That is the problem that people have when they assume, brother.

”Rule? Exceptions? This is where you come off arrogant brother. You make blanket statement based on your personal experiences and maybe just maybe outside of the sphere of your personal experience there is some good Godly stuff going on?”
I thought you and I had come to an agreement from the Bible about the general rule we were discussing. How is that being arrogant? Also, the fact that I agreed with you on this band, how is that deny Godly stuff going on? Did I miss something by agreeing with you?

”response can't unilaterally throw a blanket on the party.”
Why? Let me use a different example to maybe help better explain the point here. If I know professing Christians who work at abortion clinics, do I have permission to presume that they don’t understand the Biblical prohibition against murder or that they may not understand that abortion is murder? Would that not be a natural supposition to make?

” Over and over? I have seen positive over and over. I have seen pride and arrogance in leaders of congregations that don't partake in CCM. It is not the genre it is the internal pride of the individual. If I were involved in the music industry perhaps I may see it differently. I am in the Special Coatings industry. I know many believers in my industry. The majority of them claim Christ as the only way to God through His Grace. The majority of them have business practices that aren't up right and honest yet they proclaim Christ. Special Coatings at fault? Nope the attitude of the individual is. Regardless of what profession one is in, there are principles to follow as a believer.”
I agree with you 95% there. The attitude is important, but is less important that being lined up with the Word of God? I don’t see one as more important than the other. They have to go hand-in-hand, correct?

“If this is the case, perhaps more time in developing your full position could be helpful. Seems that a lot of us have one view of your writing and you have another. You have an impressive ability to irritate people Bryan. I am not talking about your message, I am talking about your style of communication.”
PRAISE GOD FOR THAT!!! LOL!! I also see the opposite happening.

Take Paul for example. He would go to one town and preach the Word and see a revival. Then he would go to the next town to preach the same message using the same style but have a revolt as the result. The method is important just as much as the message, but I don’t believe in this format – an Internet forum – that this is the opportunity to be personable as I would on an individual level.

I take a similar approach as the Spirit lead Paul to write the Epistle to the Romans. It is a very doctrinal letter and not as personal as the other ones. Why? Paul assumed he may never meet the members of the church at Rome. The same is here. I may never be blessed with the opportunity to meet you or some of the others. Hence, my posts will be straighter to the point and less personable than if we were sitting down in my living room having the same discussion. Does that make sense in any fashion?

”I'm calling BS hear Bryan. You have claimed it as yours by using it as part of your posting as you do. I wear a Mickey Mouse shirt every day but that doesn't make me Walt Disney but if I have other shirts to wear, it does say something about me and what I am about.“
Huh? I don’t understand your analogy or your point. Please clarify.

”The Christian flag is not germane to this discussion. I was merely applying the logic you had used previously to the Baptist flag that you had used for CCM. To Baptists it makes perfect sense but to outsiders, including me who was raised in a Baptist Church and graduated from a Baptist college, that flag is a proclamation of what the Baptists have. Yes the Blood refers to Jesus' sacrifice, of course it does. But per your rule of something needing to be overtly obvious to all, it is definitely not. I'm not telling anyone to quit flying that banner just pointing out that by casual glance it appears that Baptists are the way, the truth and the light. Check around, I don't think I am alone in this.”
Maybe you lost me on this somewhere then on this sidebar.

”If you mean the means of salvation vs being pre and post trib? then I agree that one is a deal breaker and the other is not.”
Yes. If there is only one or two doctrinal difference, there can still be fellowship. But if the ONLY thing you agree upon is how to get saved, how can there be any real fellowship?

Regarding your posting of Romans 14:4-10, are you trying to accuse me of judging you for disagreeing with me on minor points about music? Or am I missing the point? How does this add to the discussion? Is this a sidebar? Maybe we should just move on to the next guideline.

[pitbull]

Shane,
“If I had one piece of advice for you Bryan, I would ask you to take a close look at how you try to reach others with your message.”
Not trying to reach someone with a message here.

“Although I do stand firm with you on doctrine and standards, I will have to agree that you can seem a bit arrogant and pushy at times. Now that is not an attack.”
I think you get that impression because I intentionally leave out my personal views, bias, feelings, etc. in my posts. Hence they are impersonal by design. If you and I were sitting down in my living room and discussing the same topic(s), you would find that my approach would be far more personable than on an Internet forum where there are people that I may not be blessed with the opportunity to ever meet. Hence, I intentionally leave some of the pleasantries at the door when I briefly log on at the library or college.

“But when someone comes on here and sees a long list of about 15 posts telling them how to dress, act and what music they have to listen to that can leave a bad taste in their mouth.”
NEVER told anyone how to dress, act, or what music to listen to. Some on the forum try to say that I am, but I have NEVER attempted to do that.

“I'm just saying that maybe you could back off that stuff a bit and just be a regular guy that loves the Lord every now and then.”
What is a “regular guy”? And I don’t understand the point about loving the Lord “every now and then”. I though we were to love Him 100% of the time. Did I miss you intention?

“I believe if you would add more posts with just general conversation people could get to know you better for who you are.”
There is an old saying, “Dying men don’t talk about the weather or sports”. And some wisdom passed on to me from an old Methodist preacher, "Each day we deal with people who are either dead or dying. As we walk through that valley, we need to forget about nice aspects of people liking us. Instead, we need to act like paramedics and get right to the job!"

“I know you are preacher and preaching is what you are called to do but maybe you could spend a little more time just being a friend to those who visit here rather than trying to constantly be their pastor.’
Life is too short to do that, brother. Trust me on that. Also, I preached a message just last year saying that preachers need to quit trying to be everyone’s friend and being “buddy-buddy” so that the respect will return to the office!! LOL!! Kind of don’t want to go against my own sermons!! LOL!!

“Just food for thought brother.”
Thanks for the input, though I didn’t understand most of it. LOL!! Maybe you need to come down to my level!! LOL!! You may have a few floors to travel down to my level. Last time I had my IQ test, I think it was around 85 or something like that.