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Post by pitbull on Oct 24, 2005 6:48:31 GMT -5
I used to listen to everything from Michael Card to Michael W. Smith to Petra to dcTalk but I now avoid CCM. Why? I have learned that CCM [99%] violates the very basic guidelines given in the Bible for what true music should be for us Christians. Here are the guidelines that I have been able to find. Feel free to show me some I have missed or forgotten.
1. Christian lyrics are to praise only the Lord Jesus Christ — not man. (Psalms 9:2; 21:13; 28:7; 33:2-3; Matthew 16:23)
2. Christian music is only for the Lord and His people — not the world. (Psalms 9:11; 137:1-4; Isaiah 12:2; 2 Corinthians 6:14, 17; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16)
3. Christian music must be a new song — not an old song [i.e. worldly/secular pattern]. (Psalms 40:1-3; 144:9; 149:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17)
4. Christian lyric’s message must be clear — not vague or deceptive. (Acts 4:10-13; 9:29; 14:3; 18:26; 19:8; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 14:15; 2 Corinthians 3:12; Colossians 2:4)
5. Christian lyrics must emphasis the message — not the music or the musician. (Psalm 66:2; John 12:43)
6. Christian music is only for the local church — not concert halls, bars, civic centers, nightclubs, etc. – excluding recordings. (Psalms 22:22; 149:1; Hebrew 2:12)
7. Christian music must feed the spirit and not the flesh. (John 3:6-7; 4:24; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Galatians 5:16, 24; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16)
8. Christian musicians must be dedicated to the Lord — not worldly or egotistical (1 Samuel 16:7-12,14-18; 1 Chronicles 15:16; Matthew 5:16; Acts 13:22-23; Romans 12:1-2; Ephesians 5:18-21; Colossians 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:9,10)
9. Christian music must have all three components of music (melody, harmony, and rhythm) and melody is required to be the primary component. (Isaiah 23:16; 51:3; Ephesians 5:18-19)
10. Christian music should not use drums. Why? · The Bible lists many kinds of instruments (e.g. Psalms 150:3-5) but there is one instrument that is never mentioned that we are permitted to use: the drum. · The Bible restricts the number of instruments allowed for official usage in sacred worship at the Tabernacle or the Temple. [1 Chronicles 15:16,28; 16:5,6,42; 25:1,6; 2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Ezra 3:10; Nehemiah 12:27] · Drums historically are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals. · Drums are associated with the fleshly, rhythm driven music used by the world. [Romans 12:2; James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-16]
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Post by Thane on Oct 24, 2005 8:06:43 GMT -5
What is CCM??
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Post by lovelace on Oct 24, 2005 8:07:10 GMT -5
I have been looking into this as well. I read this and here is a link to the whole article. www.wayoflife.org/fbns/drumsand.htmCONCLUDING NOTE BY BROTHER CLOUD After publishing this article by e-mail via the Fundamental Baptist Information Service, I received a challenge from a reader as follows: "You missed the timbrel. The timbrel is a type of drum. It is a tambourine (Psalm 150:3-5). Websters says about the timbrel: n, ancient musical instrument, kind of tambourine [OF. timbre] and it says about the tambourine: n, flat half-drum with jingling disks of metal attached. So the bible does indeed tell us to use drums in the form of timbrels. David used them and so did Miriam, Moses’ sister. We are told to use them to praise His name! Does your church use tambourines? If not then you are disobedient to the word of God!" REPLY FROM BROTHER CLOUD: Even a piano is a type of drum, if you want to go into that level. It is a percussion instrument and therefore "a type of drum," but the timbrel definitely is not a drum in the modern sense that is used in a Contemporary Christian band, and that is what we are warning about. We used a tambourine some in our church in Nepal, but it is nothing like the drums that are used to pound out rock type rhythms in contemporary bands. I reject what you are saying and stand by the article. I am seeing too much worldly garbage in Christian music, and I will do everything in my power to warn people to turn away from it.
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Post by lovelace on Oct 24, 2005 8:08:10 GMT -5
Contemporary Christian Music God Bless, Mike
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Post by Thane on Oct 24, 2005 16:41:13 GMT -5
Im confused, are you saying that listening to stuff like Living Sacrafice, Extol, and Agony Scene are evil, because they scream, and have double bass drums?
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Post by lovelace on Oct 24, 2005 17:36:25 GMT -5
I know it is stated in the old testament they played tambourines and timbrels. Maybe not directly in the Temple. The tambourin is a drum in my book? If something was invented after the Bible was invented....is it correct? Without quoting the Bible, it speaks of spreading the word of our Lord Jesus Christ...but it doesn't state to use a radio, tv or computer.
Tambourin:1 SAM 10:5
After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
tam·bou·rin (tmb-rn, tä-b-r) KEY
NOUN:
A long, narrow, two-headed drum used in Provence. One who plays this drum. A style of dance in lively two-beat rhythm, accompanied by this drum.
Timbrel PS 150:4
tim·brel (tmbrl) KEY
A Call to Praise God with Musical Instruments 150Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: [1] praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: [2] praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord
NOUN:
An ancient percussion instrument similar to a tambourine.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 25, 2005 7:02:25 GMT -5
Thane, I don't know these groups. Do they meet these basic Biblical guidelines? If not, they I would avoid them due to their disobedience to the Word of God. Bryan
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Post by pitbull on Oct 25, 2005 7:04:27 GMT -5
The Bible lists many kinds of musical instruments, including percussion instruments (e.g. Psalms 150:3-5): timbrel – 5 times mentioned · toph – a tambourine · taphaph – to drum, i.e. play (as) on the tambourine: - taber, play with timbrels. tabret – 4 times mentioned · toph – a tambourine · topheth - smitting, i.e. (fig.) contempt: - tabret. cymbals – 16 times mentioned · metseleth- (only dual) double tinkler, i.e. cymbals · tselatsal – clatter, i.e. (abstract) whirring (of wings); (concr.) a cricket; also a harpoon (as rattling), a cymbal (as clanging)
While the Israelite people used various instruments to worship God in national festivals or civic ceremonies or military victories or other public worship/thanksgiving services, they were banned from official usage in sacred worship at the Tabernacle or the Temple. (1 Chronicles 15:16,28; 16:5,6,42; 25:1,6) The Temple instruments were psaltery, harp and cymbals. These were only to be played by Levites. The priests only were to employ the trumpet (including the cornet), for special purposes. These four were only half the number of instruments in common use at the time. At the time of King Hezekiah these rules were reaffirmed in 2 Chronicles 29:25-26. Only three types of instrument were to be played by Levites, and one by priests. Centuries later, when Ezra and Nehemiah restored Temple worship, the four-instrument rule was scrupulously followed – confirming that it was the binding rule for the Jews. (See Ezra 3:10 and Nehemiah 12:27) As you come into the New Testament, this has become tradition in the synagogue worship by the Jewish people –even to the modern day.
Also, there is one percussion instrument that is never mentioned in the Bible: the drum. Why isn’t it mentioned? Did God forget to list it? No. God doesn’t forget anything, so there must be another reason. Maybe drums didn’t exist during Biblical times? That is not the case. The Egyptians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Phoenicians, Assyrians, and other cultures during Biblical times all used drums. Drums historically are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals that were so predominate among the pagan cultures – especially with sensual dancing during worship. · “[Drums] represents the beat of the heart and is played to summon up magic powers” (Miranda Bruce-Mitford, The Illustrated Book of Signs & Symbols, DK Publishing, 1996 p. 80). · “The shaman was the original ‘long hair’, the first rock star draped in leather, dancing POSSESSED to a rhythm banged out on A DRUM” (Danny Sugerman, Appetite for Destruction, p. 208). · In Siberia, in northern Asia, drums are used in shamanic rituals to heal people. It is believed that the shaman can communicate with the spirit world THROUGH DRUMMING (Louise Tythacott, Musical Instruments, Thomas Learning, 1995, p. 37). · “Pagan dances and rituals are always accompanied by the incessant BEAT of DRUMS. Rhythm plays a major role in these demonic activities” (Lowell Hart, Satan’s Music Exposed, Salem Kirban Inc., 1980 p. 71).
Drums are associated with the fleshly, rhythm driven music used by the world. [Romans 12:2; James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-16] Rhythm is not evil. It is necessary for true music. Christian music must have all three components of music (melody, harmony, and rhythm) but melody is required to be the primary component. (Isaiah 23:16; 51:3; Ephesians 5:18-19) When it comes to worldly styles of music – rock, country, rap, jazz, and the so-called Christian alternatives – the rhythm is the primary ingredient. What gives the unique rhythm to these styles? Drums!
Remember that drums used to be illegal in the United States of America except in two locations – New Orleans [home of jazz and voodoo] and in the military. Why the military? The drumbeat used there is different from that of the secular music styles. There’s a basic difference. A march has the beat on one and three. ONE, two, THREE, four, ONE, two, THREE, four. Dance music is one, TWO, three, FOUR, one, TWO, three, FOUR. You can hear that old snare drum playing this difference. The march type music is the soldier’s music. We’re going to depict something military if we use the march rhythm. If we use the dance rhythm, we’re going to depict something that is opposed to marching, something sensual. This is a basic element of music.
If a church must use a drumbeat in its music, it needs to be a non-sensual march beat. Best case is for a church not to use drums at all during church services or other forms of corporate worship, just like the rules for sacred worship at the Tabernacle and the Temple.
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Post by Thane on Oct 25, 2005 9:21:32 GMT -5
So let me see if I have this right, because they use drums (rule 10) they are evil? Because they remade a song (Agony Scene remade Paint it Black in a christian song) (rule 3) they are evil?
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont you consider this going a little far!!
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Post by Thane on Oct 25, 2005 15:36:55 GMT -5
Petra played drums, stryper played drums, does this mean they are evil too. My church band has drums, are they evil?
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Post by Thane on Oct 27, 2005 12:11:54 GMT -5
Brian, I must apologize for keeping on like this, but the more I read this the worse it gets. In your very first post here you say that drums are evil, by the last post you are saying that they can be used if they are used in a marching (military) fashion, but its best to stay away from them. When were drums illegal in the USA? Glasses are never mentioned in the bible, are they evil, what about computers, and vehicles, they are never mentioned and as you said "Did God forget to list it, no God doesnt forget anything, there must be another reason" So are we to assume just as you did with drums that they must be evil? Vehicles are used everyday to promote satanic works, thru paint jobs, and symbols attached to them, does this make them evil? Computers are full of evil! I think it is extremely risky taking the approach you are taking on this, you have basically just called everyone in every chirstian band that has drums, satanic and accused them of false worship! I have not been able to find one verse that states "drums are evil and you shall not use them" or anything to that effect. Like I said in the beginning, I must apologize for the constant bringing up of this subject, but you have got to admit, it has to be one of the most far fetched arguments ever.
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Post by Rickey Dale Crain on Oct 27, 2005 12:38:53 GMT -5
HELLO BRYAN
GREAT POST.....
1. Christian lyrics are to praise only the Lord Jesus Christ — not man. (Psalms 9:2; 21:13; 28:7; 33:2-3; Matthew 16:23)
AGREED.....THIS WOULD MAKE SENSE.....
2. Christian music is only for the Lord and His people — not the world. (Psalms 9:11; 137:1-4; Isaiah 12:2; 2 Corinthians 6:14, 17; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16)
AGAIN THIS MAKES SENSE
3. Christian music must be a new song — not an old song [i.e. worldly/secular pattern]. (Psalms 40:1-3; 144:9; 149:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17)
NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THIS......IF YOU ARE TALKING MUSIC......(NOT THE WORDS).....THEN THERE IS NO CHRISTIAN MUSIC TO LISTEN...MOST OF THE MUSIC WRITTEN IS WRITTEN ON IT'S OWN MERIT..I.E. THERE WERE NO WORDS TO IT WHEN IT WAS FIRST WRITTEN....AND MUSIC IN IT'S OWN HAS NO SPIRITUAL CONTENT...IT IS THE WORDS THAT MAKE IT SO..
4. Christian lyric’s message must be clear — not vague or deceptive. (Acts 4:10-13; 9:29; 14:3; 18:26; 19:8; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 14:15; 2 Corinthians 3:12; Colossians 2:4)
AGREED 100%
5. Christian lyrics must emphasis the message — not the music or the musician. (Psalm 66:2; John 12:43)
GREAT POINT..
6. Christian music is only for the local church — not concert halls, bars, civic centers, nightclubs, etc. – excluding recordings. (Psalms 22:22; 149:1; Hebrew 2:12)
MAKES SENSE....
7. Christian music must feed the spirit and not the flesh. (John 3:6-7; 4:24; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Galatians 5:16, 24; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16)
SO VERY TRUE...
8. Christian musicians must be dedicated to the Lord — not worldly or egotistical (1 Samuel 16:7-12,14-18; 1 Chronicles 15:16; Matthew 5:16; Acts 13:22-23; Romans 12:1-2; Ephesians 5:18-21; Colossians 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:9,10)
THIS IS A BIG POINT..NOTHING BOTHERS ME MORE THAN A CHRISTIAN MUSICIAN EMPHASIZING HOW HE IS WITNESSING TO PEOPLE WITH HIS MUSIC..I.E. EVANGELIZING AND THEN CHARGING FOR IT.....HE SHOULD ACCEPT LOVE OFFERINGS LIKE A PREACHER OR EVANGELIST OR ANYONE ELSE SPREADING THE GOSPEL.....I.E. HE LEAVES HIS WELFARE UP TO THE LORD...
9. Christian music must have all three components of music (melody, harmony, and rhythm) and melody is required to be the primary component. (Isaiah 23:16; 51:3; Ephesians 5:18-19)
ALL MUSIC HAS THIS.....TO AN EXTENT....BUT NOT ALL ARE USED IN ALL SONGS (HARMONY FOR EXAMPLE)
10. Christian music should not use drums. Why? · The Bible lists many kinds of instruments (e.g. Psalms 150:3-5) but there is one instrument that is never mentioned that we are permitted to use: the drum. · The Bible restricts the number of instruments allowed for official usage in sacred worship at the Tabernacle or the Temple. [1 Chronicles 15:16,28; 16:5,6,42; 25:1,6; 2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Ezra 3:10; Nehemiah 12:27] · Drums historically are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals. · Drums are associated with the fleshly, rhythm driven music used by the world. [Romans 12:2; James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-16] Logged
DISAGREE.......THEY ARE ONLY ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH IN THE PAST HUNDRED YEARS OR SO......
DRUMS WERE A BIG PART OF ISRAELS WORSHIP AND THEIR MUSICIANS USED THEM...
Samuel 6:5 - And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
1 Chronicles 13:8 - And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.
1 Chronicles 15:16 - And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.
1 Chronicles 15:19 - So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
1 Chronicles 15:28 - Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.
1 Chronicles 16:5 - Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obededom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals;
1 Chronicles 16:42 - And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.
1 Chronicles 25:1 - Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
1 Chronicles 25:6 - All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king's order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman.
2 Chronicles 5:12 - Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:)
a timbrel, tambourine, or tabor, a tabret was an instrument used in Bible days. Tabrets are small drums, often adorned with cymbals and decorative ribbons. Tabrets are still used today and are often referred to as praise hoops.
rdc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Servant in Christ, Bryan Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 20:24; Romans 11:29; Galatians 4:16
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Post by Rickey Dale Crain on Oct 27, 2005 12:40:35 GMT -5
bryan
a timbrel is a small drum...
rdc
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Post by jimray on Oct 28, 2005 9:16:24 GMT -5
Bryan, we've discussed this before on the NASA forum. When I type, "this" I mean the Biblical concept of being, "separate", because THAT's what this is all about. What would the Amish think of you for the lifestyle you live? (Clothes with bright colors, buttons and snaps; driving a car, typing on a computer, etc. etc.) Don't think for a minute that Satan doesn't try to twist people's interpretations of the Bible to deflect the truth and to distract us with arguments about legalism.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 31, 2005 9:02:30 GMT -5
Thane, Please allow me to address each of your concerns and points:
1. “So let me see if I have this right, because they use drums (rule 10) they are evil?” Please note the first posting on this: 10. Christian music should not use drums. First, notice that this Biblical guidelines says “SHOULD” not “MUST” as the previous ones did. Second, notice that no where in the explanation for why we shouldn’t use drums, did I EVER day that those who use drums are evil.
2. “Because they remade a song (Agony Scene remade Paint it Black in a christian song) (rule 3) they are evil?” No, I did not say that they are “evil” for remaking a song from a secular source. What I sited was that this does not follow a Biblical guideline rather than a direct commandment.
3. “PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont you consider this going a little far!!” If you had asked me this question 13 years ago when I was a backslidden Christian I would have agreed with you 100% on that extreme statement. Now, after coming this far in my growth and walk with the Lord, no I don’t.
4. “Petra played drums, stryper played drums, does this mean they are evil too. My church band has drums, are they evil?” I will only say that I have repented of those bands – which I used to listen to and have destroyed my copies of their tapes.
5. “I must apologize for keeping on like this, but the more I read this the worse it gets. In your very first post here you say that drums are evil, by the last post you are saying that they can be used if they are used in a marching (military) fashion, but its best to stay away from them.” NO, I DID NOT SAY IN MY FIRST POST THAT THEY ARE EVIL. That is what you wanted to read. I said that we should avoid them. In my later post, I clarified that even more and gave reasons why. Please don’t try to read into things that are not there.
6. “When were drums illegal in the USA?” From the founding our nation until the late 19th century, drums were illegal in this country except for two areas: military and New Orleans. Even black churches in the south after the Civil War still banned drums because they still remember the associations of drums with pagan religion back in Africa.
7. “Glasses are never mentioned in the bible, are they evil, what about computers, and vehicles, they are never mentioned and as you said "Did God forget to list it, no God doesnt forget anything, there must be another reason" So are we to assume just as you did with drums that they must be evil? Vehicles are used everyday to promote satanic works, thru paint jobs, and symbols attached to them, does this make them evil? Computers are full of evil!” There are principles, standards, and guidelines in the Bible that can be applied to each one of these. The Bible is a book for all time. It is my final authority on all matters of faith and practice.
8. “I think it is extremely risky taking the approach you are taking on this, you have basically just called everyone in every chirstian band that has drums, satanic and accused them of false worship!” When and where did I do this? I think you are trying to accuse me of something I didn’t do.
9. “I have not been able to find one verse that states "drums are evil and you shall not use them" or anything to that effect.” And what did I say about that earlier? Take for example, the Bible does not say, “Thou shalt not use tobacco.” There is no evidence that tobacco is ever mentioned in the Bible. Yet there are clear Biblical guidelines that we can site to following in our lives as to why we should not use tobacco products. The same is true with drums and that is all I have done, despite your false accusations.
10. “Like I said in the beginning, I must apologize for the constant bringing up of this subject, but you have got to admit, it has to be one of the most far fetched arguments ever.” No, I don’t have to lie to that admission. I stand on the Bible for this and what I have sited earlier.
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