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Post by pitbull on Aug 25, 2006 20:41:23 GMT -5
vince148, I am not attempting to put any one under the Mosaic Law and the 640+ commandments. When you talk about being freed from the law, you must distinguish between the ceremonial and the moral. For example, verse 11 in that same passage prohibits stealing and lying. I believe we can both agree that we are supposed to obey those.
Verse 29 says, "Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a sleeper..." Now, this is the only place this is found in the Bible. Since it is found in Leviticus and part of the Mosaic Law, does that mean I no longer have to obey this? Do you see what I mean? We cannot pick and choose on what we are to obey of God's moral law.
And even when the commandment was part of the ceremonial, you must ask what was the principle that was behind it. The same applies here.
Once you do that you will be able to live free. Freedom is not the absense of rules. That is anarchy. And God does not teach that. True liberty is from responsibility out of loving gratitude, not fear. Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 25, 2006 21:22:07 GMT -5
But you are. Gal. 5:2-4 and James 2:8-12...You can't be selective. If you're going to hold to keeping one law, you must perform all the law and you are judged according to the law.
Further, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 states who shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. So someone who prostitutes his daughter would be covered in this verse and you wouldn't have to go all the way back to Leviticus.
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Post by pitbull on Aug 27, 2006 5:44:33 GMT -5
But you are. Gal. 5:2-4 and James 2:8-12...You can't be selective. If you're going to hold to keeping one law, you must perform all the law and you are judged according to the law. Further, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 states who shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. So someone who prostitutes his daughter would be covered in this verse and you wouldn't have to go all the way back to Leviticus. Vince, No, I am not. I am showing consistencing in the Bible and the difference [such as addressed in Galatians and Hebrews]. Do you believe we are to obey the moral law of the Bible which is found in the Old Testament? Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 27, 2006 17:05:22 GMT -5
Bryan, certainly as Christians, we believe in the morality of the Old Testament. But that is not the issue. If I'm understanding what you've been writing, it sounds like we are to keep the "moral" laws and throw out the "ceremonial" laws.
However, my arguement is that you can't separate the law. You can't say that you're going to keep one part of the law (moral) and discard and ignore the other (ceremonial). Paul says that it's ONE law.
Matthew Henry puts it this way concerning Gal. 5:1-2..."since it appeared by what had been said that we can be justified only by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the righteousness of the law, and that the law of Moses was no longer in force, nor Christians under any obligation to submit to it, therefore he (Paul) would have them to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and not to be again entangled with the yoke of bondage. Here observe, 1. Under the gospel we are enfranchised, we are brought into a state of liberty, wherein we are freed from the yoke of the ceremonial law and from the curse of the moral law; so that we are no longer tied to the observance of the one, nor tied up to the rigour of the other, which curses everyone that continues not in all things written therein to do them." (see Gal. 3:10)
I understand that you're not intentionally trying to hold us to the 600+ laws of the Old Testament. But the point is that when you say that we must obey a specific commandment in the OT, like tattooing or circumcision or eating foods offered to idols, you must obey and be bound to doing the WHOLE law. Hence you are a slave to the whole law and will be judged according to the whole law. This is what Paul says about it.
So what I need from you is to show me biblical evidence as to why I need to obey the moral laws of the OT and not the ceremonial laws and how by doing so, I am not subject to the whole law.
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Post by pitbull on Aug 28, 2006 5:36:44 GMT -5
Vince, As it says in Galatians 6:2 and other places in the NT, we are to obey the Law of Christ. What is that? That is the moral and spiritual law of God.
The epistle to the Galatians and the book of Hebrews explain this a whole lot better than I can. I recommend that you read and study those.
So, if you reject this Biblical teaching, how do you determine what to obey from the Old Testament and what not to obey? Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 28, 2006 7:15:56 GMT -5
Bryan, I believe I answered that. Yes, there are biblical moral standards that we are to follow, which Jesus summed up very well in his statement, "Love your neighbor as yourself." and which Paul continually reiterates through the epistles.
But again, you're avoiding the issue of this thread. You said we can't get tattoos because it's in the Law. So you keep ignoring my question. How can I be subject to one part of the Law and not the others? I have shown biblical evidence that you can't. I'm still waiting for you to answer that.
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Post by pitbull on Aug 28, 2006 13:13:49 GMT -5
Vince, I have not said that Christians should not get tattoos. I have said here is what is recorded in the Bible. You have said that we can ignore that part of the Bible because it is in the Law. So, you continue to avoid my question - how can we pick and choose what we obey in the Bible? I have answered your question on more than one occassion, now will you show me the same respect?
Remember this is not a matter of legalism [earning or keeping salvation] but rather a matter of the heart and fellowship with the Lord. Will it be sweet and joyful due to obedience? Or will it be burdensome and depressing due to rebellion?
If the heart is right with God, this is a mute issue. Bryan
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Post by pitbull on Aug 28, 2006 13:27:53 GMT -5
Vince, Since you are wondering about if you have the “freedom” to get tattoos or not, I will attempt to answer your question one more time. But instead of me, I will let the following Bible preachers do it for me. So, you will have to forgive me that I don’t give you the one sentence answer again. It will be a little lengthy.
James “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God” (James 4:4).
John the Disciple “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever” (1 John 2:15-17).
John the Baptist “But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (Matt. 3:7-10).
Peter “As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear” (1 Peter 1:14-17).
Paul “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them” (Ephesians 5:6-11). “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).
I hope those were able to answer your questions. If not, let me address another issue. I know that you sited the epistle to the congregation at Galatia earlier. The term “liberty” is used in two different ways in the book of Galatians. Paul refers to the believer’s liberty from a works gospel (Gal. 2:4), but he warns of using Christian liberty as an “occasion for the flesh.” “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; ONLY USE NOT LIBERTY FOR AN OCCASION TO THE FLESH, but by love serve one another” (Gal. 5:13). The Christian has no liberty to walk in any type of unholiness, no liberty for moral looseness, no liberty to serve the world.
In case you are still not convinced, I wish to address how you cited 1 Corinthians 6:12-13 and 1 Corinthians 10:23-24. Consider the verses in their context:
1 Corinthians 6:12-13 -- “All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.”
1 Corinthians 10:23-24 -- “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.”
These verses are frequently misused today by those who desire liberty to fulfill their carnal desires. These would have us believe that the apostle Paul is saying the Christian has liberty to wear immodest clothing and watch indecent movies and romp near naked at the beach and listen to wicked rock music and to fellowship with anyone who says he “loves Jesus” regardless of his doctrinal beliefs, etc.
Is that what the Holy Spirit through Paul meant by the statement “all things are lawful unto me”? By no means! Obviously there are limitations on the Christian’s liberty. The New Testament Scriptures, in fact, put great limits upon our “liberty.” We are not free to commit fornication (1 Cor. 6:16-18; 1 Thess. 4:3-6), nor to be involved in any sort of uncleanness (1 Thess. 4:7), nor to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11), nor to be drunk with wine (Eph. 5:18), nor to allow any corrupt communication to proceed out of our mouths (Eph. 4:29), nor to allow any filthiness of the flesh or spirit (2 Cor. 7:1), nor to be involved in anything that has even the appearance of evil (1 Thess. 5:22), nor to love the things that are in the world (1 John 2:15-17), nor to befriend the world (James 4:4), nor to dress immodestly (1 Tim. 2:9), etc. God got a little bit more specific than what some try to say about just "loving our neighbor", huh?
What, then, did the apostle mean? He meant that the Christian has been set free by the blood of Christ, free from the wages of sin, free from the condemnation of the law, free from the ceremonies of the Mosaic covenant, but not free to sin, and not free to do anything that is not expedient or edifying.
Paul explains himself perfectly in both passages. In 1 Corinthians 6:12-13, he uses the example of eating meat. In 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 and 10:23-28 he uses the example of eating things that have been offered to idols. In all such things like that, the Christian is free, because these are matters in which the Bible is silent. There are no dietary restrictions for the New Testament Christian as there were under the Mosaic Law. We do not have to fear idols; we know they are nothing. This is the type of thing Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians, if we would only allow him to explain himself in the very context rather than attempt to put some strange meaning upon his words that would fill the Bible with contradiction.
Paul addresses exactly the same thing in Romans chapter 14. The Christian is free from laws about eating and keeping holy days (Rom. 14:2-6). We are not to judge one another in these matters, because these are matters on which the Bible is silent in this dispensation [as compared to the Age of the Law]. This does not mean we are not to judge anything and that we are free to do whatever we please. When the Bible has spoken on any issue, our only liberty is to obey.
I hope this helps to answer your questions. Now, I will await your answer to my question. Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 28, 2006 16:01:41 GMT -5
Yes, I obey it, not because the OT commands it, but because the NT commands it. I believe you've already provided several verses that cover that.
You are not picking and choosing. If you are a Christian, you are not bound by the old law and subject to keep it. All of those moral rules that were in the OT are now covered in the NT. Are you following the old covenant or the new? If you're following the new covenant, then you live your life according to the new covenant, not the old.
Let me put it this way, and I'm not sure whether you will agree with this or not, but I'm going to say it this way to illustrate my point. You can get Bibles that include nothing more than the NT, Psalms and Proverbs. No Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Numbers or Prophets. Is there enough information in that Bible to give me the information I need to live a moral Christian life? I say, without a doubt, yes. I believe that every moral law that was covered in the OT laws is included in the NT. As a Christian, that is what I base my life on. I live a moral life because I am born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. I can live a moral Christian life whether or not I ever saw the Mosaic Laws because it's all in the NT.
I'm still not sure you have. So let me ask the question differently just so I'm clear where you're coming from. If you are saying that I have to obey the moral laws of the OT because they are also commandments in the NT (verses already mentioned), I have no issue with that, and agree for the reason I stated above.
However, if you are saying that I have to obey the OT commandments because these were commandments given by God to be followed today, then I do not agree with you. And I go back to what I stated in my other posts that you cannot subject yourself to one part of the law without subjecting yourself to the whole law. Additionally, I go to Hebrews, Ch. 8., although very simply stated in v.13, When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
So, which is it?
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Post by pitbull on Aug 28, 2006 17:09:10 GMT -5
Vince, Let me put a little differently for you. Maybe you can better understand why we need the Old Testament as we live under the New Covenant.
The Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Should we obey them? 1. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” [Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:29, 30; Luke 10:27; Revelation 21:8] 2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…” [Matthew 24:11; Acts 17:29; Romans 1:23,25; 1 Corinthians 5:10,11; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:20-21; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 21:8] 3. “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”[Matthew 21:33-37; Romans 1:29,30; Colossians 3:8; James 3:4-12; 1 Peter 3:10] 4. “Remember the sabbath day…” – not commanded in New Testament. Was a part of the ceremonial law and sacrificial system under the Mosaic Law. 5. “Honour thy father and thy mother…” [Matthew 15:3-6; Matthew 19:19; Mark 10:19; Romans 1:30; Ephesians 6:1-3] 6. “Thou shalt not kill.” [Matthew 5:21-26; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 1:29; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:21; 1 Timothy 1:9; Revelation 21:8] 7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” [Matthew 5:27-32; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 1:24,27,29,31; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:9-11; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:19; 1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Peter 2:14; Revelation 21:8] 8. “Thou shalt not steal.” [Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:10; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Timothy 1:10] 9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” [Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 13:9; Colossians 3:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 21:8] 10. “Thou shalt not covet…” [Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Corinthians 6:10; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Peter 2:14 ]
We should not obey the ceremonial laws or sacrificial system parts of the Mosiac Law because those “…are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” [Colossians 2:17] The moral parts of the law are repeated in the New Testament as commandments, principles, doctrines, or guidelines. Many will miss the guidelines and principles if they don’t read and study them along with the Old Testament corresponding passages.
Let me give you some examples. The Biblical guideline of modesty is addressed in 1 Timothy 2:9, but this is not understood fully until looking at what is taught in the Old Testament about this, such as Psalm 147:10 and Isaiah 47:2. The guideline taught in 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 is not understood completely until compared against Deuteronomy 22:5. When it comes to musical guidelines [such as mentioned in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16] cannot be understood fully without studying Psalms and the principles under the Old Testament gives. The list goes on but it shows that we need to the Old Testament to understand the context of the New Testament.
The New Testament says the following about believers: “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” [1 Peter 2:5, 9] “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” [Revelations 5:10] “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” [Revelations 20:6] Unless we read the book of Leviticus and other aspects of the Mosaic Law, we are ignorant of our responsibilities as priests. This doesn’t mean that we should we robes, sacrifice animals, worship on Sabbath, etc. This instead is where we apply the underlying principles found in the Old Covenant. This is what is meant by obey the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
Have you ever tried to read or study the book of Revelation? By itself, you will not understand it. But if you read it along side Daniel and Ezekiel, you will start to understand the symbols and other items used there. Look at how Daniel and Revelation are related in context of the following: “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for THE WORDS ARE CLOSED UP AND SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.” [Daniel 12:9] “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.” [Revelation 1:3] Without the use of the Old Testament, especially the Prophets, you will hinder the Holy Spirit in instructing you to the meanings given in these prophecies. There are 65 books given by God so that we will have His commentary on this book.
For all of these reasons [and more], this is why Jesus said, “…It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” [Matthew 4:4] I don’t know about you, I need a complete Bible, not half of it. I need all of God’s Word to live my life by. When God commands me to preach the whole counsel, I don’t wish to stand before Him guilty of that sin.
Now, let me ask you a question. Do you love Jesus? • “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” [John 14:15] • “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” [John 14:21] • “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” [John 14:23-24] • “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” [1 John 5:3]
Now, do you really love the Lord Jesus Christ? If so, are you obeying the following commandments? • Have you followed the Lord’s example in believer’s baptism? (Acts 2:38, 41; 8:36-37) • Have you joined a local church and become a faithful member? (Heb. 10:24-25; Ps. 122:1; Acts 2:41, 47) • Are you faithful in your prayers? (1 Thess. 5:17; Luke 18:1) • Are you faithful to reading and studying the Bible on a daily basis? (2 Tim. 2:15; Acts 17:11) • Are you being obedient to Biblical soul winning? (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15) • Are you living a holy and separated life according to Biblical standards? (1 Thess. 5:22; 1 Pet. 1:15-16)
These will not make you saved. These will not help you keep your salvation. Both of these depend solely upon the grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. • “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified in the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” [Galatians 2:16] • “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” [Ephesians 2:8-9] • “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” [2 Timothy 1:9] • “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost;” [Titus 3:5] Good works/deeds are the result or fruit or proof of ones salvation. They do not help you to produce, gain, or keep your salvation, but rather are the external evidence of the internal change to both yourself and others. [Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8; James 2:14-26] Many forget this and make either too much or too little of good works. This is why I said the issue of tattoos was more of an issue of the heart/spirit rather than one of legalism or bondage to the Old Covenant. As we live under the New Covenant, we need to remember this. Do you understand this? Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 28, 2006 18:47:37 GMT -5
Vince, Let me put a little differently for you. Maybe you can better understand why we need the Old Testament as we live under the New Covenant. The Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Should we obey them? 1. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” [Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:29, 30; Luke 10:27; Revelation 21:8] 2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…” [Matthew 24:11; Acts 17:29; Romans 1:23,25; 1 Corinthians 5:10,11; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:20-21; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 21:8] 3. “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”[Matthew 21:33-37; Romans 1:29,30; Colossians 3:8; James 3:4-12; 1 Peter 3:10] 4. “Remember the sabbath day…” – not commanded in New Testament. Was a part of the ceremonial law and sacrificial system under the Mosaic Law. 5. “Honour thy father and thy mother…” [Matthew 15:3-6; Matthew 19:19; Mark 10:19; Romans 1:30; Ephesians 6:1-3] 6. “Thou shalt not kill.” [Matthew 5:21-26; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 1:29; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:21; 1 Timothy 1:9; Revelation 21:8] 7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” [Matthew 5:27-32; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 1:24,27,29,31; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:9-11; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:19; 1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Peter 2:14; Revelation 21:8] 8. “Thou shalt not steal.” [Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:10; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Timothy 1:10] 9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” [Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Romans 13:9; Colossians 3:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 21:8] 10. “Thou shalt not covet…” [Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Corinthians 6:10; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Peter 2:14 ] As you point out, each one of these 10 commandments has a NT complement. I obey them for that reason. We do not obey them because we are no longer bound to the old law. Additionally, these laws were given to the nation of Israel, not the Gentiles. Agree. See above. I do not agree with this. The early Gentile churches did not have access to the old testament. Their primary access to OT scripture was what Paul and others included in their epistles. But none quoted the entire Mosaic Law to them, nor held them to them, although Peter had attempted this. You're trying to compare how women are to adorn themselves vs. God not taking pleasure in the legs of a man vs. a prophesy concerning Israel. Don't see the relation. Here, you're comparing hair length and hair coverings to men dressing like women and women dressing like men. Again the two have nothing to do with each other. The two NT verses seem to stand pretty well on their own. I'm not going to debate on musical instruments. I just don't agree. Besides, I think Jesus pretty much stated that the purpose of the OT was that it pointed to him. The primary purpose of the priest in the OT was to bring the sacrifices of the people before God for atonement. Romans 12:1 would pretty much summarize what it means to be a priest as a Christian. Again, I don't need the OT to show me my priestly responsibilities as a Christian. The book of Hebrews pretty much explains the history of the priest in the OT. I do not concern myself with end times prophesies and trying to understand all the symbolism. I simply take the advice of Jesus. Be ready. Have your life in order. Yes, I agree. However, 2 Tim. 2:16 says that we are to rightly divide the word of truth. To me, this means understanding what is meant for us as Christians today vs. what was and is meant for the nation of Israel. I believe this comes comes through study and prayer and is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. We actually agree on something.
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Post by pitbull on Aug 28, 2006 19:31:33 GMT -5
Quote: “As you point out, each one of these 10 commandments has a NT complement. I obey them for that reason.”
No, they don’t. I pointed that out. The Sabbath doesn’t.
Quote: “We do not obey them because we are no longer bound to the old law. Additionally, these laws were given to the nation of Israel, not the Gentiles.”
Why were they given to Israel?
Quote: “I do not agree with this. The early Gentile churches did not have access to the old testament. Their primary access to OT scripture was what Paul and others included in their epistles. But none quoted the entire Mosaic Law to them, nor held them to them, although Peter had attempted this.”
Consider this: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” [Acts 17:11] What Scriptures did they read and study? The Old Testament. The New Testament had not been written at that time. Were these Jewish believers only? No, there was both Jewish and Gentile [especially Greeks] believers at this congregation. While they didn’t cite the “Mosaic Law” to them, they did give them the Old Testament. There is a difference and I think you are missing it.
Quote: “You're trying to compare how women are to adorn themselves vs. God not taking pleasure in the legs of a man vs. a prophesy concerning Israel. Don't see the relation.”
They all deal with the principles that give us the Biblical guideline of modesty for men and women. Modesty is not just something for women alone, but for men too. For example, the Psalmist wrote how men are not to show off their legs [hence pants rather than shorts] and Isaiah teaches us how showing of the thigh is a form of nudity. They go hand-in-hand but only if you obey the principle of doing concept upon concept and precept upon precept. [Isaiah 28:10-13]
Quote: “Here, you're comparing hair length and hair coverings to men dressing like women and women dressing like men. Again the two have nothing to do with each other.”
Yes, they are both dealing with the principles for the Biblical guideline how our outward appearance should be gender specific.
Quote: “The two NT verses seem to stand pretty well on their own. I'm not going to debate on musical instruments.”
If they do, why is there so much confusion in churches today that refuse to use the Old Testament? That has nothing to do with musical instruments but rather about God’s guidelines for musical styles.
Quote: “I just don't agree. Besides, I think Jesus pretty much stated that the purpose of the OT was that it pointed to him.”
I said that earlier. How are you going to understand Him without reading the Old Testament? Do you remember how Jesus talked to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus? “Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? AND BEGINNING AT MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, HE EXPOUNDED UNTO THEM IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF.” [Luke 24:25-27]
For example, I use Isaiah when witnessing to Jewish people. I also use other passages of the Old Testament to witness with various people, depending upon their backgrounds. You cannot understand many of the things mentioned in the Gospels without reading the Old Testament.
Quote: “The primary purpose of the priest in the OT was to bring the sacrifices of the people before God for atonement. Romans 12:1 would pretty much summarize what it means to be a priest as a Christian. Again, I don't need the OT to show me my priestly responsibilities as a Christian. The book of Hebrews pretty much explains the history of the priest in the OT.”
No, the purpose of the priest was to go to God on behalf of the people. The various laws, rules, regulations, and commandments were to teach us various different principles. We learn from their examples. We learn about what Christ does for us as our High Priest by also reading the Old Testament.
Quote: “I do not concern myself with end times prophesies and trying to understand all the symbolism. I simply take the advice of Jesus. Be ready. Have your life in order.”
How are you able to answer the cults when they promote their false views? How are you able to edify and encourage the brethren without studying this? God commands us to do this, not just preachers.
Quote: “Yes, I agree. However, 2 Tim. 2:16 says that we are to rightly divide the word of truth. To me, this means understanding what is meant for us as Christians today vs. what was and is meant for the nation of Israel. I believe this comes comes through study and prayer and is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.”
I have said this before.
Quote: “We actually agree on something.”
Since you have twice said the same thing I have said before, I think we agree more than you think.
Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 28, 2006 21:53:22 GMT -5
No. This verse refers only to the Jews that he addressed in v.10. They, being Jews, would have had access to the OT scriptures and would have been able to search them. These verses, 10-11, are not talking about the Gentiles.
I don't need to read the OT to understand him. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John give me a much better picture of who he is.
That's what I said. He offered the sacrifices to God on behalf of the people.
You will never persuade someone influenced by a cult with the Book of Revelation. When Paul was confronted with heretical teachings, he preached Jesus Christ, not Revelation.
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Post by pitbull on Aug 29, 2006 6:01:00 GMT -5
Vince, Let me see if I can address you comments accurately.
Quote: “No. This verse refers only to the Jews that he addressed in v.10. They, being Jews, would have had access to the OT scriptures and would have been able to search them. These verses, 10-11, are not talking about the Gentiles.”
Someone needs to tell the congregation there, since they had Gentile members. Look at verse 12 and you will understand this – “Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women WHICH WERE GREEKS, and of men, not a few.” In other words, they had a lot of Gentile believers who had access to the Old Testament to study and believe, though not under the Old Covenant or bound to the Mosaic Law.
Quote: “I don't need to read the OT to understand him. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John give me a much better picture of who he is.”
Since He fulfills all Old Testament prophecies about Himself [astronomical odds – 1 x 10 to the 27th power], we learn that He is the promised Messiah of the Old Testament. Here are just 18 of them: 1. The Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2; Matt. 2:1-6) 2. The Messiah was to be born of a virgin. (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25) 3. The Messiah was to be a prophet like Moses. (Deut. 18:15, 18-19; John 7:40) 4. The Messiah was to enter Jerusalem in triumph. (Zechariah 9:9; John 12:12-16) 5. The Messiah was to be rejected by His own people. (Isaiah 53:1-3; Psalm 118:20; Matt. 26:1-4) 6. The Messiah was to be betrayed by one of His followers. (Psalm 41:9; Matt. 26:14-16, 47-50) 7. The Messiah was to be tried and condemned. (Isaiah 53:8; Matt. 27:1-2) 8. The Messiah was to be silent before His accusers. (Isaiah 53:7; Mark 15:1-5) 9. The Messiah was to be struck and spit upon by His enemies. (Isaiah 50:6; Matt. 26:67; 27:30) 10. The Messiah was to be mocked. (Psalm 22:7-8; Matt. 27:39-44) 11. The Messiah was to die by crucifixion. (Psalm 22:14-17; Matt. 27:31-35) 12. The Messiah was to suffer with criminals and pray for sinners. (Isaiah 53:12; Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27-28; Luke 23:32-34) 13. The Messiah was to be given vinegar and gall. (Psalm 69:21; Matt. 27:34,48) 14. Others were to cast lots for the Messiah’s garments. (Psalm 22:18; Matt. 27:35-36) 15. The Messiah’s bones were not to be broken. (Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:20; John 19:31-36) 16. The Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin. (Isaiah 53:5-6; John 1:29) 17. The Messiah was to be raised from the dead. (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:1-9) 18. The Messiah is now sitting at God’s right hand. (Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19) You lose this if you ignore the Old Testament, let alone some of His names/titles [e.g. Isaiah 9:6].
We know that Jesus was God with us in human flesh, but without sin. (Matthew 1:23; John 1:14) This is commonly referred to as the incarnation. Until this point in history, no part of the Godhead had a mortal body. It is true that God the Son would sometimes assume a physical form in the Old Testament [known as Theopany], but that was only for a temporary encounter. The following are some examples of people that met God the Son in a physical form prior to the incarnation: a. Hagar: Genesis 16:7-11 [compare to Malachi 3:1] b. Abraham: Genesis 18 [compare to John 8:56] c. Jacob: Genesis 32:24-30 d. Joshua: Joshua 5:13-6:5 e. Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego: Daniel 3:25 f. Daniel: Daniel 10:5-6 [compare to Revelation 1:13-16] If you ignore the Old Testament, you miss out on these blessings.
Quote: “That's what I said. He offered the sacrifices to God on behalf of the people.”
You said, “The primary purpose of the priest in the OT was to bring the sacrifices of the people before God for atonement.” I was not talking about sacrifices. We are to live a holy and separated life as “peculiar” people [as Peter put it] as a royal priesthood. We are to intercede to people as prayer warriors and by sharing the Gospel with the lost. Many fail their duties as priest under the New Covenant by not understanding the distinctions given to the priesthood of the Old Covenant.
Quote: “You will never persuade someone influenced by a cult with the Book of Revelation. When Paul was confronted with heretical teachings, he preached Jesus Christ, not Revelation.”
That’s strange, since God let me win a cult member [Jehovah Witness] by using that Book. Huh, I guess I better go and tell him that he is still lost in his sins and that Jesus didn’t fulfil His promise to save Him. I used this book to preach Jesus since it is “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” [Revelation 1:1]. The whole book is to reveal Him to us.
I did a sermon one time on comparing Genesis and Revelation how things started in Genesis were finished, done away with, or completed in Revelation. People will miss this blessing of Jesus by ignoring the Old Testament.
Now, I hope this helps you to keep things in context and proportion. Does it? Bryan
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Post by vince148 on Aug 29, 2006 7:28:03 GMT -5
Bryan,
I guess I'm just going to say that it's obvious that we come from two different backgrounds.
I'm not going to debate the importance of the OT vs. the NT. From a Christian standpoint, I want to know about the Jesus that did come, die and rose again; not about the Jesus that was the promised Messiah to the Jewish nation. Will I not be blessed because I choose not to spend a lot of time in the OT. I seriously doubt it.
If the word is true, and it is, God only cares about my heart, not whether I know every detail about the Mosaic laws and "priestly" duties.
Bibles were certainly not in circulation back in Paul's times as they are today, yet people were saved and lived for Christ and Christianity spread.
Jesus said it so simply. Be like a little child. Do children have to analyze everything to get a point? No. They keep things very simple. If church leaders stopped trying to overanalyze every detail we wouldn't have such a dismembered body.
If people want to be theologians that's fine. I prefer to keep Christianity simple. I'll study a little church history, but my faith is simple. I used to delve into every detail. Wanted answers. It didn't make me a better Christian. In fact, it probably made me more like a Pharissee.
So now, I keep things simple. I believe in Jesus Christ. I love him with all of my heart and soul. I live my life for him as best as I could. I witness when the opportunity presents itself.
I've enjoyed this dialogue with you. However, I think we've gone around enough on this subject.
In Christ, Vince
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