Tattooing For Jesus

[guest stevefredine]

I just saw this post Bryan. I am certain your intentions are honorable. I disagree with your application, your use of scripture out of context and your willingness to teach about things you don't agree with. You have shaved your beard which is a gross trimming of the edges.

I have Tattoos. None of them have pagan meanings nor do they have negative conotations. Each came after prayer and discussion with my wife.

"Then, as now, tattooing was associated with idolatry and paganism. "

I would argue with that statement. I would argue that the passage is speaking about being involved in pagan things. You may argue that all tattooing is pagan. I argue it is not. There are types of tattoos that I would not get because of the symbology behind them. That is the same as art work that won't enter my home.

You are a good guy and we agree on the basics. There are gray areas where we don't agree.

You preach the gray like it is your way or the highway. I am not trying to be offensive or hating. The article you listed is skewed in so many ways I won't even start.

Each Believer is called to work out their salvation in fear and trembling. We strive with God's help through the sanctification process. We are each accountable to God for our actions.

If you feel strongly about you as believer not getting tattooed, then I am with you, you should not get tattooed. I do not find my self prohibited in the same way nor do I find that the tattoos that I like/have are pagan or leading any one in that direction. My God, my wife, my family, my pastor and church family are just fine with my choices.

I really appreciate your positive, proactive posts to Bill Lawlor.

[Shane Gaydon]

Steve you have made some great points. I am not a big fan of Christians getting covered in tattoos but I also have to admit that I can't use the Old Testament Law to force people to see it my way either. I have begun to see that many people are taking Scripture out of context to support their own personal opinion and tastes and that is wrong.

[stevefredine]

Thanks Shane. I am in not advocating someone haphazardly (?) getting ink. Like all things as a believer we need to reconcile our actions as honoring to God.

I am sorry if I seem abrupt above. I was tired when I typed the above and probably come off somewhat heavy handed and that was not my intent.

My reference to tattoos I would not get would be along the lines of some polynesian tattoos that imply a deeper spiritual meaning/message for the person getting the tattoo. I have never seen Jesus mentioned in these so I am avoiding them regardless of how cool they may look.

For the record I have 4 smallish tats that are easily hidden for certain social settings where they may be a distraction. I'll see if I can figure out how to post them.

Gotta go. Have a great weekend!

[pitbull]

Steve,
Do you understand the difference between Biblical guidelines and Biblical commandments? If so, you will understand this article [which I didn't write].
Bryan

[guest stevefredine]

Yes Bryan, I do understand differences between guidlines and commandments. We have discussed this before. I also understand being in context and out of context the lines of which I believe the author of the article that you presented blurs and or ignores.

I wonder if the author of the article is clean shaven?

Not picking a fight here at all. You and I agree on lots of topics.

[pitbull]

Steve,
I am not trying to pick one with you either. Just trying to figure out your reasoning here [especially on the context issue, since most of the passages were NT in nature]. Glad to hear that you understand that the author is presenting a Biblical guideline rather than a Biblical commandment.

Yes, he is clean shaven. Most preachers are, but I know some who are not. That is not a Biblical issue but rather one of hygene and presentation/representation. The ones I know who have beards, usually do it to win their community to Christ. For example, I know one who lives in a heavily Amish area. He personally believes that preachers should be clean shaven, but he wears a beard so that they will take him seriously.

This is a totally different area than tatoos. Why are you going onto this tangent? For example, I can site Christians who got tatoos after getting saved and see nothing wrong with them. I can also site Christians who got tatoos before getting saved and now feel convicted over them. This is a totally different issue than shaving.
Bryan

[stevefredine]

Bryan,

I am not on a tangent here at all. I am getting to the heart of the author's motivation. As one rereads the posted article you will see that in the body of the article the author listed Leviticus 21:5 as a source reference. This has the prohibition against trimming the corners of one's beard.

In as much as the author is said to be clean shaven, he seems to apply standards from the referenced passages one way for tattoos and another for beards. Also, anybody in the pulpit or Christianity at large shave their heads? If you apply scripture consistantly with the author's standards, no believer should shave their head either.

The author is free to hold the opinions he has. Based on the evidence from his personal life, I believe his opinions are just opinions. His positions seem more social than scriptural and subject to his own personal preferences.

I'll repeat what I said before:

"Each Believer is called to work out their salvation in fear and trembling. We strive with God's help through the sanctification process. We are each accountable to God for our actions."

Have a good week!

[pitbull]

Steve,
I will say that they are his convictions, but not his opinion. I have posted some other articles to show you others have even stronger convictions on this issue.

The two best NT verses that I use for tattoos is 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 1 Corinthians 10:23. They are not sinful, but there are many complications that can come with them, especially when it comes to our testimony.

I tell people who are considering getting tattoos to seriously consider what it will do for their testimony for Christ [i.e. what the lost will think of them, as well as weaker brethren].

I tell people who already who have tattoos not to beat themselves up with guilty. Instead use it as an opportunity to witness by telling people where they were at in their life when they got them and how Christ has changed them.
Bryan

P.S. My wife has two tattoos, so this is a personal matter with me. It is also why I don't attack people who have them. I understand why. Don't see any Biblical justification, but I understand.

[stevefredine]

Lol Bryan, now who's on a tangent? LOL. The author of the initial article you posted has a conviction/opinion/position based on personal preferences with a smattering of scripture that may or may not apply. That is showed by nothing I said but what he wrote and the references he used. I merely pointed out what is there. Or what was missing.

Conviction? Opinion? Now who is on a tangent? Within the context, does it matter? Quit being so defensive and re wording what I write or my use of common english words. Check Webster and you will see that I wrote what I meant and it fits. Scripture interprets scripture. Like before, I am not going to review what you have posted. Volume does not make you right or correct or scriptural or whatever word you choose to accept as appropriate today.

I am not sure why you respond as you do. You have your opinion/conviction/position/way of looking at things that scripturally I find to be in a gray area. Tattoos are one such area. I don't care if The right Rev Allister Joe Bob Nichols of the Southern Ohio Nichols writes a pamphlet on something, if it does not 100% get backed up by scripture or it twists Scripture to his own 'convictions', it is just another guy wanting to bend people to his own standards of earthly do's and don'ts. Posting 10 other Rev Joe Bob Nichols writings does not change the reality of the situation. (The Right Reverand Joe Bob Nichols is a ficticious character.)

Adding volume (extra postings) of the same type of opinion does not change my opinion/conviction/position at all. The volume does not get to the heart of the issue. You have your opinion/conviction/position for what ever reasons. That's ok. The postings do not change the scripure or it's interpretation.

Please understand the manner in which you exchange and the change the subject makes me wonder what your end motivation is. Don't you find it odd that the author shaves his beard yet there was a prohibiton against shaving his beard? I didn't use the argument re beard trimming and tattoos, the author you chose to post did. I find it interesting the way he picks and chooses vs the way he lives. Again, he wrote the article, I am just responding.

Like last time, go ahead and post again and we can be done.

I really do appraciate what you wrote to Bill Lawlor.

Steve

PS I know it is not meant in a bad way for you to post the Baptist Flag. I still find it offensive for a variety of reasons. Mainly that the Book, the Blood and the Blessed Hope are exclusive to God and not Baptists.

[pitbull]

Steve,
Why did I respond as I did? I am trying to figure out where you are coming from. I am trying to get clarification. And your most recent post made me more confused.

Words carry meaning to me, so I did as you suggested and looked up both of them:
Opinion - a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
Conviction - a : a strong persuasion or belief b : the state of being convinced
After going to Mr. Webster, I am more convinced that these are not the same in meaning. These words cannot be used interchangeably. Thanks.

On your tangent of shaving, I guess you don't believe that Jesus was clean shave up until His trial and crucifixion, huh?

Have a good evening, brother.
Bryan

P.S. Praise God that it is not limited to the Baptist, but it does show what they have historically stood for over the centuries.

[stevefredine]

Bryan as I stated, it is not my tangent. I am going over the article of his that you posted. My bringin up shaving is at the the heart of the motivation of the author. He chooses to apply the passages one way for tattoos and another for shaving. The point being is that the heart of the matter is to avoid behaving like the pagans. Is trimming one's beard wtong? Nope. Is doing it like some satanic cultures at that time? Apparently so. The author holds the conviction/opinion/persuasion/position that this passage is about tattoos when the passage is about acting like the pagans and doing things the way they do them. Looking at the whole article here and the how's and why's the author said what he said. Re Jesus' beard, the author didn't bring that up. I am only dealing with the author's consistancy and credibility from the frame work of the article that he wrote.

Re the words, yes the definitions are different however similar enough for the point I was making. In context they all work. You chose to object to the one I chose for my point. So be it. I chose to continue to use it and use your suggestion to show that my point wasn't about THAT word but the context/meaning of my sentence/paragraph as a whole.

Re the use of the denominational flag, you have been clear about why you like to use it. I hope I have also been clear that since my dedication as a baby in a Baptist church in 1957 I was taught the Gospel and Biblical values. I am very aware of the positive straight forward manner that some baptist churches can teach. My issue Bryan is that those not privy to just how open minded some baptists really are to the world wide salvation message that Jesus taught, that they just might, just maybe, perhaps there is a smidge of possibility that they may somehow get the idea that baptists are the only ones that hold the keys to eternity. Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's that flag.

You write of music and tattoos etc that may cause people to stumble. I submit to you that that flag has turned off more people to the Gospel of Jesus than you can imagine.

Or maybe it' just my opinon/conviction/persuasion/position. Some how I don't think I am alone in this.

[pitbull]

Steve,
Let's say, using your term, that it is just the opinion of preachers that Christians should not have tattoos. I will give you the benefit of doubt for the sake of this discussion. So, let me ask you some questions:
1. Do you consider all of the book of Leviticus for only the tribe of Levi, especially the sons of Aaron?
2. Does part of it still apply to day? How would we know that?
3. How do you distinquish between the ceremonial and the moral parts of the Mosaic Law?
I look forward to your answers. Thanks.
Bryan

[stevefredine]

Bryan, for clarity sake. I have been discussing the position of this author within the context of his statements and his use of scripture.

This thread was started with an article about tattoos. I found the author's conclusions and applications to be subjective and made with personal bias attached.

I do not find that the scriptures he used, within their context, support the point he was making.

That is the main point I was making. The other point I was making is that if you or anybody else has a problem with tattoos, you should probably not get any.

The questions you ask in your most recent post may be related on some level but are for a different thread/discussion.

[pitbull]

Steve,
Sorry, I was just trying to understand your opinion about this article.
Bryan

[stevefredine]

What's to understand Bryan? The author listed verses as support for his positon. I believe he used them out of context in regard to his personal conviction on tattoos. Within the same text there is a prohibition against trimming beards. The author is clean shaving. My point is that the author seems to pick and choose what and how he applies scripture in his life.



This author may be a really nice right on guy. I don't know. The manner in which he gains his convictions makes me not very interested in knowing more of what he thinks.

My personal view, and I may well be wrong, is that the author had an opinion and went and looked for verses to support it. On a total aside, I will go out on a limb and guess that he also may be a topical preacher.

Nothing deeper than that Bryan. The article has all of the evidence built in. Not really an opinion at all. Is your question really about motivation?